Building a new computer

[teach1st]

I've got three grand to build a new system for a friend, with heavy use of graphic apps. I'm not hep to the hardware side of the Intel world and can always use some advice. Need some sort of DVD and a good scanner. Any ideas?
* Is 128 megs of memory good for a few years, or should I go with 256?
* Best all around processor?
* Sound and video

Thanks!

[Tatu]

256! 256! 256!
Hey, at least I can live my dream of doubling my RAM through someone else. :)

From what I hear, the AMD Athlon (brand spanking fast!).

Audio and video? I haven't a clue. But then again, I don't think I have a great clue about the rest of my advice either... I think I am just posting to ramble. :(

Sorry I couldn't be much help :)
-Tatu

[Justin]

Hm...

256 MB 133 MHz RAM
PIII-600 clocked to 800
-- OR --
Athlon 800 clocked to 1 GHz
Asus motherboard
IBM Deskstar, Quantum Fireball, or other fast drive
Not too sure about DVD yet... I'd just go with a good RW drive... movies are for the TV :P
As many fans as will fit in the case
Some will tell you to go with the Riva TNT or the nVidia GeForce 256 chipsets, but I happen to really like 3dfx chipsets (Voodoo cards)...
Make sure the AGP port on the board is 4x
Any monitor with a Sony Trinitron CRT (mine are both Radius M1 17" Trinitron)
Turtle Beach Montego sound (stay away from SB)

I think I will stop before I end up at the computer store again... besides, I'm sure once you add the other essentials, I've gone over $3k... I'm just dreaming now...

Hope this helps (though I'm sure it does not ;) )

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[elite]

Ya I third the 256 megs of ram. I would suggest you get 1 256 meg chip, because I have three 128 meg chips, and my computer just throws a fit when I try to use more than one :(

I would then suggest getting a Athlon 600 (goes way up in price after this speed) and getting IBM Hard Drives (I would get two 26 gig ones)

Good 19" monitor, good mouse, keyboard, CDRW, Good case with plenty of expansion space & power and space for cooling...

[Shalazar]

1. Processor

AMD is your only answer if your machine is going to be used in graphics heavy applications.[nbsp][nbsp]Not only do the new Athlons blow the Pentium away in nearly all benchmarks applied, but they set new records in graphics rendering.[nbsp][nbsp]I think they're up to an 850MHz chipset now, able to be overclocked to above 1GHz with the use of an Alpha cooler.

2. Motherboard

Going with a chipset like that, you'll need something with a 133Mhz BUS.

Athlon and motherboard = $1000.00 most likely

3. RAM

256 should be your bare minimum for graphics.[nbsp][nbsp]I would suggest 512Mb of PC133 RAM, simply because having too much RAM is never a bad thing, whereas too little will make you pull your hair out.[nbsp][nbsp]You can expect to pay, retail, about 2x the amount of RAM you need in dollars.[nbsp][nbsp]If you're lucky to have a wholesale account like I do, then its much cheaper.

256Mb RAM = $512.00

4. Storage

I may be biased here, but I only use Quantum Fireball HDs in my systems.[nbsp][nbsp]They're fast, they're reliable, and their transfer rates rock.[nbsp][nbsp]Going to Ultrawide SCSI drives would increase your throughput as well as give you blazing fast access times.

Quantum Ultrawide SCSI 18.2Gig = $359.00

5. Audio

I personally run a Creative Labs AWE64 Gold card, and it is spectacular for my general use applications, especially with these 4Q system surround sound cubes and subwoofer bass unit.[nbsp][nbsp]But if audio is really important for you, I suggest the Creative Labs SoundBlaster Live Platinum for all your audio needs. Just make sure you have an open bay to handle the front inputs.

Sound card = $199.00

6. Video

I use the Creative Labs Riva TNT card, which is simply a godsend and gives blazing fast renderings on things like Half Life, Team Fortress, etc...even running online at 1024x768 on an AMD K6 233Mhz system.[nbsp][nbsp]I honestly believe Riva is the superior chipset, especially having used both the Voodoo and Riva cards.[nbsp][nbsp]I believe you'll find more support in the things you do with the NVidia chip (Riva). And the card gets even better when you get to the TNT2 level of the 3D Blaster Annihilator Pro card with the GeForce processor. The video processor alone is twice as complex as even the Pentium III chip[nbsp][nbsp]The more you relive your main processor of having to deal with video, the better off you'll be.

Riva TNT (16Mb VRAM) = $99.00
G-Force TNT2 (32Mb)[nbsp][nbsp]= $299.00

7.[nbsp][nbsp]Scanner

I truly believe the best scanner on the market is the HP ScanJet 6300C. Full 36-bit color, 1200ppi hardware resolution with unlimited interpolated resolution.[nbsp][nbsp]Automatic layering of vector line art, text separation, and image preparation with touch of a single button.[nbsp][nbsp]Can be set up to automatically process color, levels and target resolution.[nbsp][nbsp]And it's FAST!!![nbsp][nbsp]Will scan an 8x10 at 1200ppi and import into Photoshop in under a minute.[nbsp][nbsp]And it runs on SCSI! In my experience, it produces excellent output which needs little or any manipulation provided you begin with good source material.[nbsp][nbsp]

Scanner = $399.00

Granted, all these prices are full retail.[nbsp][nbsp]But even at retail, about 2500 of your 3 grand is spent on internals.[nbsp][nbsp]But I suggest you check out something like[nbsp][nbsp]http://shopping.cnet.com to compare prices, you can find things MUCH lower, and really cut your costs on internals!


------------------
Shalazar

www.charisma-carpenter.com (http://www.charisma-carpenter.com)
The Internet's Premier site for everything Charisma.

[tedloh]

256MB of RAM is useful, especially if you have to work with graphics.[nbsp][nbsp]128MB is fine if you just want to use Office and other boring things.

Processor - either a Pentium III or an Athlon will do you just fine.[nbsp][nbsp]I haven't tried an Athlon yet, but that will change sometime soon.

Sound - Sound Blaster Live! Value.[nbsp][nbsp]Don't waste your time with the rest, the hassles aren't worth it.[nbsp][nbsp]What Justin says about the Turtle Beach is justified - it is a top-notch sound card - but I've not had a single problem with the SB Live! in any computer I've installed for customers, nor have I been disappointed by the sound quality.

Video Card - depends on what you plan to do with the machine.[nbsp][nbsp]As a general rule I do NOT recommend the top-end cards unless you just gotta have the fastest Quake III benchmark in your neighborhood.
------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work currently on hold)
ted@tygresystems.com

[Shalazar]

If you need a serious graphics workstation, I think its worth a little extra money for the higher end cards.

But will be quite honest with you.[nbsp][nbsp]I run Paint Shop Pro 5, Corel photo paint 8, Photoshop Image Ready, and Photoshop 5.5 on my system, so I would consider that heavy graphics usage.[nbsp][nbsp]Until not too long ago, I also did my video capture and stream encoding on the same machine, but just now built a separate workstation dedicated to that.

I run:

AMD K6 233Mhz chip
128Mb RAM
Riva TNT 16Mb video card
56k modem
LinkSys 100Mbit Ethernet card
24x CDROM
HP CDR (SCSI)
HP Scanjet 6300C (SCSI)
Adaptec 4100 SCSI card
Creative Labs AWE64 Gold sound card
Quantum Fireball 2.1G and 6.1G HDs
Sony Radius 20" Intellicolor Monitor

This is the BEST computer I've ever run.[nbsp][nbsp]In the 3 years since we've built it, it hasn't developed a single problem.[nbsp][nbsp]And it's been loaded with everything from here to Timbuktu.[nbsp][nbsp]Running all those graphics programs, Half Life, Everquest, games galore.[nbsp][nbsp]And it's held up like a charm.

If you can afford the best, by all means go for it.[nbsp][nbsp]Otherwise you can compromise on the components least important while maintaining quality in the most important pieces you need.

I personally place priority on the processor, the amount (not brand) of RAM, the video board, and the monitor.[nbsp][nbsp]Believe me, a 20" monitor was the single best investment I've ever made.

------------------
Shalazar

www.charisma-carpenter.com (http://www.charisma-carpenter.com)
The Internet's Premier site for everything Charisma.

[YFS200]

384 is the minimum amount of memory needed for heavy graphics in Photoshop. I found that programs like Photoshop and Premier do not place as heavy load on a graphic card as you may think. I have a ATI All-In-Wonder AGP 8mb and the only time it get's stressed is playing Star Wars Racer game that I seem to be addicted to. :)[nbsp][nbsp]

If you will be storing files over the network, then 100bps is way too slow. Get something faster.

For hard drives, IBM or WD are all good. But get a RAID 1.
http://www.arcoide.com/baymount.htm has great product that I have in all the important systems. Not saying backups are not good. The NT server makes backups to CDR twice a day. But figure how long it takes to restore data to a new hard drive, even if it is current. Most programs don't have any easy way to move that data from to CDR back to the HD. So your left with installing Win9x, finding the drivers for the CDR, installing the backup software, and then restoring and hoping that it all works. Most of the time, it won't. Down time is at least a day or two. With the RAID 1, just keep working.[nbsp][nbsp]

As for backups. HP makes a great IDE CDRW. The 8200 is a killer with great software support. Combine that with Veritas' Backup Exec makes a backup solution that you don't have to think about.[nbsp][nbsp]Speaking of, get another CD for reading(ultra fast SCSI maybe?)[nbsp][nbsp]. You won't remember to put in the CDR for backup and the feature soon gets turned off.[nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp]

Sound card: Anything from sound Blaster is great. The Live series is good.[nbsp][nbsp]

Eddie

[Justin]

As for video, I agree that just about any good 2D card will work just fine for Photoshop etc - no 2D program will ever use the 3D accelleration at all - not until you enter graphics (full screen games) mode...

That's one of the things I like about 3dfx - their 2D performance is outstanding IMO, and I spend a lot more time in Windows than I do in Quake III ;)

As for sound cards - Sound Blaster does set the standards, but they are not the best. SB cards are not reliable - from the SB16 to the PCI-128 (what I'm using currently), there is a problem where the wave out device will lock up completely, requiring a full power-down reboot to fix it. It only happens when you are using it a lot - editing sound files, mixing MP3's etc.

I have not used the Live series yet, but the Platinum does sound like a decent card - though my next card will be the Turtle Beach Montego - dual 18 bit D/A converters (studio quality), a true -96db S/N ratio (SB's are typically about -50db, roughly the equivelant of 8 bit audio or cassette tape), and a number of other things.

The drive bay inputs is interesting, as I have built something similar myself once, using a 5-1/4" knockout and some RCA connectors :)

One thing nobody brought up is speakers... My PC is part of my stereo system (which I just bought a new receiver/speakers), but Cambridge Soundworks has teamed up with Creative Labs (aka Sound Blaster) and made a kick-butt PC speaker system... Cambridge has always made top notch speaker systems ala Bose (small and loud)...

But I'm an audio freak - any SB card capable of full duplex should be fine (note: any SB with "value" in the title is a no-no, as they are not true full duplex. They resort to 8 bit resolution when trying to record/play at the same time. The best true way to get full dupe is to install multiple sound cards ;) ).

Oh, RAM - brand IS important, though I don't have any recomendations... All I know is, I have a 128 meg stick of PC-100 that would not work in 3 different PC-100 compliant boards, even though my 64 and 32 meg sticks did work in them (also PC-100). Not to mention my 128 meg 66 MHz ram worked at 100 for short periods in one of the boards...

Finally with the Asus board the ram works, but it will not work with any other ram - so I'm stuck at a lousy 128 right now... if I pop in the 64 or the 32 with the 128 it no longer recognizes the 128. I have tried every possible slot combo to no avail. Yet the ram has no problem being clocked at 124 MHz... I hate RAM...

Ok, I'm going to finish waking up and stop ranting :P

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[Shalazar]

Interesting info regarding the Turtle Beach Montego card Justin, thanks for that![nbsp][nbsp]It'll be worth doing some homework to look into it more.[nbsp][nbsp]I guess over the years, I hear "sound card" and in a Pavlovian response go "Soundblaster."

Maybe I'll check out something new in a future build :)


------------------
Shalazar

www.charisma-carpenter.com (http://www.charisma-carpenter.com)
The Internet's Premier site for everything Charisma.

[tedloh]

Justin, where did you hear that any SB "value" card is not full duplex?

The difference between SB Live! Gold and Value is extra wavetable memory, plus gold-plated connectors.[nbsp][nbsp]I am not aware that there is any other difference between the two cards.[nbsp][nbsp]As for the Platinum, I know little, but I know there must be some reason for the higher price!
------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work currently on hold)
ted@tygresystems.com

[Justin]

I don't know about the Live, as I said, I've never used one... but all of the AWE-32/64/128 cards (ISA and PCI) have had the same problem with the "Value" model. They are full duplex but they will not record and play at 16 bits in full duplex. As soon as you start to record, it reduces to 8 bit... though it may still produce a 16 bit file, the actual recording resolution is 8 bit.

The reason is this: An A/D converter needs a D/A converter to operate. Since the Value cards (again, the one's I've used) only have a single, stereo 16 bit D/A converter, doing both requires sharing this converter. So 8 bits (per channel) goes for playback and the other 8 goes to recording.

To prove this theory, if you have decent speakers and some MP3/Wave music that is 16 bit stereo, start playing it. Then open up another app that records and start to record. If your card suffers from this, you'll hear the playback go into 8 bit mode (and usually a click in the playback).

My PCI-128 is the standard (non-value) version, so it will do full 16 bit stereo record/playback (great for using Cool Edit Pro's multi-track recording, especially when a second sound card is added as well... ;) )

It's something that most people would not even notice... I find it sad that SB gets away with -48db S/N ratios (my 128 does about -56db with no input signal - eg, it's own noise - and my SB-16 does about -44db... very poor - might as well use analog tape). The Turtle beach card can do better than -90db if you get the top of the line Montego.

Oh, and what is worse - I very rarely use MIDI - in fact, the only time I use MIDI is when I hit a geocities site... yet that is the feature SB seems to want to promote the most, with wave table synthesis, surround effects, and so on... I care about wave in/out - but I can't seem to find a good wave card that does not have all of the MIDI junk on it...

At any rate, if you use your sound card to hear Windows make ding noises I guess any card will do - I do more when I have time to play with it, but the other PC just plays MP3's all day over the stereo, so to me sound is important... Again, most users would never notice the difference at all...

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[Jacob Stetser]

Well, I think I'm going to build myself a Linux/BeOS/Win2000 machine.. I want to have a machine I can 'play' with without having fear of losing something important :)

So, this what I'm going to try for....

Abit BP6 Mobo (2 ISA, 5 PCI, 1 AGP, UDMA/66, USB, etc)
2 Celeron 366s overclocked to 500+ (I hope :)
128 mb of RAM
40x DVD player (have this already)
2 10/100 Enet cards (for true firewall operation)
ATI All-in-Wonder 128 (have this already)
10.2 gig primary drive (adding a 30+ gb drive and maybe a tape drive later for network backup)
floppy (yeah, PCs still need em ;) )
Soundblaster Live (probably Value, since I don't need to record)

I'm probably going to get Maxtor drives. I think they're made pretty well. My primary desire is being sure that my system will work with Linux. Working with BeOS would be great too, but Linux is the big thing. Eventually it will do backups for Benedick (my iMac), Beatrice (my wife's iMac), and my Free-PC... it will also be acting as a router for the home network... through Mindspring at first and then whomever we get ADSL from once we move to an ADSL-capable area. (hence the Enet cards).

Are there any _real_ reasons I shouldn't go with a dual-Celeron system? I'm trying to build a powerful low-cost solution and I specced out the machine to about $800 for an SMP machine with dual 366s (at least) up to dual 550s (at most, if overclocking works out) and some decent specs.

Anyone want to give me a good deal on the Abit? I know there are some techies here :)

It will be interesting to build a PC myself. I haven't decided on a case yet and I wonder - will I need to buy the mounting stuff for hard drives seperately? Can anyone post a comprehensive list of those little extras you need to assemble a computer?
------------------
icongarden.com/?fq (http://icongarden.com/?fq)
icongarden: making good ideas grow.

[teach1st]

Thanks for all the responses. Jeez, I wish this system was for me! :)

[This message has been edited by teach1st (edited 01-15-00@12:22 am)]

[tedloh]

Jacob - I was waiting for this.

The Dual Celery is the most awesome board I have come across.[nbsp][nbsp]We have already tested two 433 Celerons running at 541Mhz each under Win2000 without a hitch.[nbsp][nbsp]Not to mention the UDMA66, 128MB RAM (though I recommend 256+)... etc.

That board has only ONE weakness - it cannot accept a Coppermine (at least, not until Abit comes out with a converter!).

To put it bluntly, I can build that dual celeron machine at roughly the same price as a Pentium III 450.[nbsp][nbsp]The only tradeoff is the lack of SSE - and since most applications do not have any SSE enhancements (Photoshop does benefit with SSE, but it also benefits from dual processors) - the result is a machine which absolutely BLOWS everyone out of the water - as long as you use an OS which supports dual processors.

I am writing this on Win2000 Final now.[nbsp][nbsp]My BH-6 and Celeron 300A are about to find a new home so I can upgrade to the Dual Celery, so I thought I'd better put W2K through its paces before the changeover.

I don't think you'd get a good price on the board from me if you throw in shipping, but just for reference purposes that board costs $125 here.

There is no legitimate reason NOT to go for the Dual Celery except for 2 - Win9x, or lack of SSE.[nbsp][nbsp]The choice is yours - but my choice is already made!

P.S.[nbsp][nbsp]I haven't tested it yet, but I'm willing to bet my Seti times decrease on average by 80% or more!

------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work currently on hold)
ted@tygresystems.com

[Dan Kaplan]

Hey, you guys certainly piqued my interest with the dual celeron talk, especially considering my dis-satisfaction with the current 'puter.[nbsp][nbsp]It's not something I have too much familiarity with, so I looked around a bit and came across two places:

http://www.cih.com/~hagan/dualceleron/
http://www.computernerd.com/mdpcp30.html

Do either of these look like a good place to learn from?[nbsp][nbsp]:)[nbsp][nbsp]The second one sells the motherboards, but for much more than Ted made it sound possible to find.[nbsp][nbsp]Is it advisable to go the package route, as opposed to MacGyver-ing it.[nbsp][nbsp]Are there other places I should be looking for fuller information?

Thanks,
Dual proclessor

[tedloh]

Jacob, have you bought that BP-6 motherboard yet?

I finally installed mine (got it from the store yesterday).[nbsp][nbsp]Ran rock solid overclocked at 500 Mhz (the processors are 400), but my hard drives (1 IBM, 1 Maxtor) did not seem to like the board so much.[nbsp][nbsp]When I reset settings to normal things worked fine again.

Gonna do a bit more testing, but this board is going to blow everything else away when I get through with it. And I will start a new Seti account running under Win2K :)

Beware of Maxtor though, at least as far as a BP-6 is concerned - many BP-6 users have reported numerous problems with Maxtor drives.[nbsp][nbsp]Fortunately, I can get a number of drives to test first, just like the board and the processors.

Will keep you posted here or in a new Dual Celery thread.
------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work currently on hold)
ted@tygresystems.com

[Daniel]

For great quality 2d and 3d look at the matrox g400, get a dual head and get 2 monitors for sweet desktop space. Dual celeries won't be very good for huge files cause of the cache size, I would go for something with a fast cache but larger, i.e. coppermine, but if you are anti intel go for the athlon for sure, just be sure about the parts you get cause they can be very finicky.

[Justin]

I've never had a problem from either of my Maxtor drives - the cause of the problem is probably your PCI bus speed. When overclocking, you *never* want your PC bus speed clocked higher than 33 MHz. Most boards run the PCI bus at exactly 1/3 the FSB (Front Side Bus) speed, and the AGP bus at 2/3, so when you overclock the FSB to get a higher CPU clock you end up with problems :(

My Asus board has multiplier (rather divider) settings for the PCI/AGP bus, so I can run 133 MHz FSB, 33 MHz PCI and so on - once I get some PC_133 RAM I'll be pushing my 450 to 600 (already pushing the FSB to 124 MHz, but the PCI bus is at 31 MHz so there are no problems)...

Anyway, here are some links you'll find quite helpful when going clock-crazy:

This site has a lot of good articles on overclocking and other things (AMD vs Intel vs G3/G4 etc):
http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/index.html

This one's good - find the batch # on your CPU to see what other's have done with that particular batch:
http://cs5.cssftware.com/cpudb/

And of course the specs on my motherboard:
http://www.asus.com/products/motherboard/pentiumpro/p3b-f/spec.html

Hope some of this helps a little bit... :)

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[tedloh]

Didn't mean to imply that Maxtor drives are no good - in fact, they're very good, and very fast.

What I stated above was that owners of BP-6 boards reported a lot of problems with Maxtor drives.[nbsp][nbsp]What it was supposed to mean is that that particular combination seems to be more troublesome.

I also thought it was my PCI bus speed, but then one drive operated perfectly and one was real sluggish.[nbsp][nbsp]I am on a third drive now, and will clock it back up to see if the problem occurs again - but I can tell you that as a general rule, running at 83Mhz bus speed might not be too hard on the PCI bus speed (which will be around 41) - and considering the drives have been tested on a 100 Mhz bus, something else may be at fault - like Win 98.

I forgot to check my lot, but it's no problem anyhow.[nbsp][nbsp]I know for sure they will run 500 with standard Intel fans - I bet they can do 600 with the Alpha fans I have ordered.

Anyhow, let me do some more work on this.

As for large files and cache size, I would argue that the difference between 128K cache on the Celery and 512K cache on the Pentium III (and not on-chip) - will be basically insignificant to about 99% of users.[nbsp][nbsp]This same concept has been tested in the days when pipeline burst cache was something you had to buy separately and install on the board.[nbsp][nbsp]The only real problem, then, is the lack of SSE on a Celeron.

File size will not be the determining factor - rather, the amount of additional instructions used in performing a task (you can take that to read 3D rendering).[nbsp][nbsp]So for most people running the Dual Celery, it should not be a major factor - as the Dual Celery was never meant for gaming and games were not designed to take advantage of SMP (except Quake III).
------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work currently on hold)
ted@tygresystems.com
[This message has been edited by tedloh (edited 02-01-00@08:25 am)]

[Daniel]

Maxtor drives are good for regular usage, but are known for not being the best drives to use in a overclocking setup. Try ibm, or western digital.

[tedloh]

Or Quantum - I still fear WD drives.

Sorry, DK, I missed your post, must have somehow snuck between me and the previous post!

First link I do not recommend, as you must modify the actual Celerons - plus which they are Slot 1 and no longer available.

Second set is a bit on the expensive side, for sure.[nbsp][nbsp]This is more like the correct price:

BP6 Dual Celery Mainboard - approx. US$130
Celeron 300A - generally not available, most are second-hand
Celeron 400A - each approx. $75
Alpha coolers - each approx. $34

Total for this package - $348
Total for the package they guaranteed - $365.

I suggest you go shop for the parts yourself - most Intel CPUs are overclockable to a minimum of 83 mhz.[nbsp][nbsp]The 300A chips were the sole exception to the rule - over 90% clocked to 100 mhz, and some reportedly as high as 124 mhz.[nbsp][nbsp]Fortunately, I just obtained two more for my SECOND BP6 - whoopeeeee!

Your mileage may vary, both in price and performance.
------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work currently on hold)
ted@tygresystems.com

[Dan Kaplan]

Thanks Ted, good info to have.

One more idiot question:[nbsp][nbsp]Does 300A and 400A refer to 300mhz+ and 400mhz+ processors, or something else?

Dunce

[tedloh]

The A is symbolic; there used to be a Celeron 300, which we called brain-damaged - no on-chip L2 cache.[nbsp][nbsp]No one would touch a Celeron with a 10-foot pole.

Then Intel, in trying to boost sales, introduced a new chip, the 300A, which had a 128K L2 cache on-chip.[nbsp][nbsp]Result:[nbsp][nbsp]the dawning of a new era - and the death of the Pentium II.

Theoretically, there is no 400A.[nbsp][nbsp]I just use it because of its symbolic status.

D-lighted
------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work currently on hold)
ted@tygresystems.com
[This message has been edited by tedloh (edited 02-02-00@12:06 pm)]

[tedloh]

More Celery news:

Discovered that the IBM Deskstar 10.1GP does NOT like unusual bus speeds.[nbsp][nbsp]So despite the fact it is only a few months old, it is being retired and resold.

Celeron 400s clock to 528 Mhz (88Mhz bus speed) and run stable even if Seti is constantly running.[nbsp][nbsp]But since CPU temperatures are high (50-55 degrees Celsius), I am ordering Alpha coolers for my CPUs.[nbsp][nbsp]I have taken the Celerys to about 582 Mhz (97 Mhz bus speed) at 35 degrees Celsius - my goal is 600 Mhz.[nbsp][nbsp]That would give me a barn burner at 1200 Mhz.

Seti, with the luxury of one CPU to itself (unfortunately does not support SMP) still shaved time to 10 hours at 528 Mhz.[nbsp][nbsp]However, I often lose data if I have to reboot, which means starting from scratch (that's why only 1 work unit has been returned).

Current hard disk is Quantum, which is known to be very tolerant.[nbsp][nbsp]Maxtor seems to run fine at this speed but it is an "old" 7.2GB drive, and reports all over the place show problems with the new Maxtors in various UDMA66 combinations.

Anyone else have progress to report?
------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work currently on hold)
ted@tygresystems.com

[Duff]

I just got a chance to take the new JUST RELEASED ASUS AGP V6800 Pure DDR SGRAM GeForce video card for a test run last night. I installed it on a P3 500 O/C to 620 (using Global Win cooling) on a MSI 6163 Pro board. This system also has 128 MB PC133 and the SB Live X-Gamer.

In Half Life we found that in OpenGL mode it produced some weird effects where anything in motion turned ghost white but Direc3D worked flawlessly. In the highest resolution possible, it was still liquid smooth. Forsaken ran 1600 X 1200 in 32 bit color like my Rage Fury does in 800 X 600 16 bit! Absolutely unbelieveable! I haven't found a game yet that would slow it down in ANY resolution! I think I'll overclock the video card and try Need For Speed High Stakes maybe later in the week.

Thief also had some weird effects but I'm sure there will be new drivers out soon to fix these issues. The 6800 DDR is considerably faster than the 6600 SDR. The 6800 Deluxe version comes out in a couple weeks which INCLUDES 3D glasses, S video IN, DVD quality harware compression, S Video out, 12 games, and a bunch more. It's less expensive than the Creative Labs DDR card, performs better, and comes with more accessories. FASTEST CARD ON THE PLANET from what I've seen.

[Daniel]

The celeron sweet spot is the 366 ppga, many of which do 550, that brings the front side bus to 100 so everything is in spec. Many places are selling packages with 366s@550, dual of those on a bp6 is a treat. To overclock a 400 to spec you need to get it to 100 mhz bus, that equals 600 mhz, it is very very unlikely that you can do that. Most of those celeron 366s do 550 without expensive alpha cooling too. I've had a few do 550 at default voltage with just retail cooling, and went higher too.

[tedloh]

Yup, you're probably right on the sweet spot - trouble is getting two of those over here is a bit of a task.[nbsp][nbsp]I settled for 400s... but I also have two 300s :)

Two 400s at 600 are not unheard of - a number of people have accomplished this using Alpha coolers.[nbsp][nbsp]I got to 582 before problems set in... but I am using stock coolers.[nbsp][nbsp]When the Alphas arrive, I will also change the case as this one has an original spec ATX power supply which blows onto the CPUs - unfortunately that is hot air we are talking about.

My 300s (the Slot 1s that I gave up) did 450 and 504, respectively, with the standard coolers.[nbsp][nbsp]I haven't tried to take the 300s past 450 yet because the room that computer is in is kind of hot, and the coolers are stock Intel Celeron coolers (the stock Intel Coppermine coolers on my 400s are 5 degrees Celsius cooler).

I'll just accept, for the time being, that I won't get bus speeds to spec - if I can just get close enough I will be happy.[nbsp][nbsp]Either way, these machines rock once you get them stable!
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Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work currently on hold)
ted@tygresystems.com

[tedloh]

Thought I'd post another update.

Dual Celery with Win2K is still solid as a rock at 528Mhzx2.[nbsp][nbsp]Will be changing the case this week for hopefully better cooling, and a 7200rpm drive.

SETI times did not go down by 80%, if only because it turns out SETI doesn't support SMP.[nbsp][nbsp]But still, the graphical client times with version 2.0 were approx. 10 hours, and the text-only client should perform at about 9 hours.

Assuming the new hard drive takes (might be a Maxtor upgrade so not overly confident) and the Alpha coolers arrive, I begin the process of further overclocking this puppy.[nbsp][nbsp]I see that there are a lot of people having problems with BP6 boards - but I'm willing to bet that that is simply because they know little about what they are doing.[nbsp][nbsp]I've got two without any problems.

One more thing about SETI - especially if you run the text-only client - get the program called SetiSPY.[nbsp][nbsp]It shows some really cool information, as well as a graphic map of where your work unit came from - really neat!

http://pages.tca.net/roelof/setispy

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Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work currently on hold)
ted@tygresystems.com
[This message has been edited by tedloh (edited 02-15-00@1:19 pm)]

[Justin]

All I need to do is find some PC_133 RAM and I should be able to clock in at 600 MHz - My RAM won't do any more than 124 MHz bus (PC_100) so I'm stuck at 558 CPU speed... not that it's slow or anythign :)

I also went ahead and picked up a Montego II sound card btw - cost less than my PCI-128 did, and it's far far superior IMO :)[nbsp][nbsp]Just wanted to update on that - TB cards still rule (though the included software is very lacking)...

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Justin Nelson
FutureQuest (http://www.FutureQuest.net/index.php) Support

[tedloh]

Turtle Beach cards have been the forerunners in sound for many, many years now - but at a price.

You're running a 300A at 124?[nbsp][nbsp]Presume it's a PPGA version...[nbsp][nbsp]RAM prices heading downwards fast now but they will go back up again by the end of this month to coincide with the expected decrease in supply caused by W2K.[nbsp][nbsp]Now is a VERY good time to buy.

[Justin]

I'm not running a Celeron - I'm overclocking a P-III 450 to 558 right now, hoping to get it up to 600 once I get the RAM.

I hadn't thought about what Win2k will do to RAM prices - but that makes sense - thanks for the insight :)

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Justin Nelson
FutureQuest (http://www.FutureQuest.net/index.php) Support