Views on Newsletter/Mailing List scripts

[Maverick]

I'm looking for views and opinions on a decent Newsletter/Mailing list program to use for a FQ site. The one I'm using now, which is PHP/MySQL based, just doesn't seem capable of handling a 5000+ name list. I know FQ would recommend the in-place ezmlm system, but I've been reluctant to go to that because I hate the "ezmlm response" notices that go out to potential subscribers to confirm list addition. It just looks too "spammy" and is something I'd delete if I saw it in my inbox. I know that can't be changed as it's built into the exmlm program. Too bad really because the rest of the system looks great. So I need something good that's similar to ezmlm.

Must Haves:
1) Handle 5000+ names
2) "Opt-in" system so that additions to the list need to be confirmed by email address owner to prevent spam.
3) Easy 2-way unsubscribe system, either via webpage or mailing an included address

That's about it. Perl or PHP, MySQL or flat-file storage, I don't really care, just something similar to ezmlm but without that annoying "ezmlm response" message title. Any real-world advice about things you might be using currently, like, and capable of handling the job, would be appreciated.

[sheila]

I don't know how FQ feels about this...running large lists on their servers. You may be told that you *oughtn't* to run such a large list (unless it is very low volume, or announcement only...)

But, I belong to a couple of lists run by the mailman software:
http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman.html

Seems like good software from a subscriber's point of view.

For other options, look here:
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Internet/Servers/Mail/List_Management/

Good luck.

P.S. Here is another link for the MailMan software:
http://www.list.org/


[This message has been edited by sheila (edited 02-06-01@12:23 pm)]

[Deb]

Sheila is correct.[nbsp][nbsp]5000 names is too large for the allowances of mailing lists on the Community Servers.[nbsp][nbsp]Once the list is over 500 names it is risking the limit levels...

You may want to consider outsourcing with a service such as http://www.listbot.com/

Deb
[nbsp]- Why did my email take an hour to arrive?

[Maverick]

Well, I certainly don't want to do anything to degrade the performance on a community server and I respect FQ's need to limit things to acceptable levels, but outsourcing presents a problem. This is an announcement only list that is mailed once every 2 or 3 months, not on a day to day, week to week or even month to month basis. In the general sheme of things, that's far more server-friendly than a small 500 name list that gets mailed twice a week. Paying Listbot or a similar service $20 a month for a list that goes out 3 or 4 times a year just isn't reasonable and free services suck. So that leaves me either running it as is or breaking it into 10 different 500 name lists to get in under the restrictions. If I send mail to this list once every 3 months and do it in the wee hours of the morning when server performance will be impacted the least, will FQ really have a problem with that? I don't feel like shopping for a new host.
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 02-06-01@4:28 pm)]

[Terra]

It really does not matter on the frequency, because once you jam up the outbound queues - then the complaints will start rolling in...

Even though our QMail system is greased lightning, remote MTA's are usually not and that is where the performance bottleneck is...[nbsp][nbsp]Sadly, I cannot optimize mail servers outside of my control...

The limits are in place for a reason, and we must impose the same rules on you - as it applies for everyone else on our servers...[nbsp][nbsp]If we didn't, it would set a dangerous precedent that would be capitalized on by others wanting to send out mass mailings...

We have provided viable alternatives, and the detractions of our current ezMLM system is not an excuse to bypass the right tool for the job...[nbsp][nbsp]ezMLM is highly respected in the Internet industry, because it does one thing - and does it right with attention to correctness...

We never like losing a site owner, but it would seem that we are not the perfect fit for your website...[nbsp][nbsp]You will want to partner with a host that is more conducive to your bulk mailings...

I'm sorry that it didn't work out...

--
Terra
--Current Song: Tool - AEnima - #11--
FutureQuest

[Binky]

I use Aureate GroupMail. I loved it till I discovered discussions on how it is supposedly spyware. As I've figured out no alternative I guess I'll keep using it. But my question is this, vis a vis overloading FQ's servers: How does using this program differ from MLM is terms of impacting the servers? My list is at 600 now and growing.

[Terra]

ezMLM was written specifically for QMail and has direct pipelines into the delivery injection queues...

It is very low overhead and cuts out quite a few steps in processing...[nbsp][nbsp]ezMLM is also highly optimized and was designed to do one thing and do it extremely well...

With what he is proposing, the deliveries must be handled through the SMTP channels which entails a great deal of connection setup/teardown, string parsing and routing decisions...

I would say that the overhead ratio would hover around 10 to 1...

--
Terra
--clear channel pipelines--
FutureQuest

[sheila]

I would say that the overhead ratio would hover around 10 to 1...
Yikes! I was going to suggest that, perhaps, FQ consider installing the mailman script (links earlier in this thread) as a possible cgi-sys preinstalled script. Hmm. Maybe not. :(

[Binky]

Once the list is over 500 names it is risking the limit levels...
I would say that the overhead ratio would hover around 10 to 1...
What should I do, then? The list will probably level off around 1000 but who knows? Maybe more. What would be the most efficient way, for all concerned, to deal with a list that big?


[This message has been edited by Binky (edited 02-07-01@02:32 am)]

[Deb]

You may want to consider outsourcing with a service such as http://www.listbot.com/ Honestly, I understand they handle these larger lists quite well with many features to boot....

Deb
[nbsp]- Faster, Cheaper, Better is often outsourced


[This message has been edited by Deb (edited 02-07-01@05:30 am)]

[Tibbits]

If the list goes out to a large number of people a few times a year, and the problem is the volume clogging thing up, couldn't there be a way to stagger the delivery?

[Binky]

Re listbot, as is the case with Maverick it's not worth $20 a month to me.

A while ago I tried setting up my computer as a mail server using Argosoft. I couldn't get it working but that's because I'm a nincompoop. If I was to get it going would that be a viable solution for large emailings? (I've got ADSL.)

I think I found my answer: http://www.aota.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000857-1.html


[This message has been edited by Binky (edited 02-07-01@3:54 pm)]

[Cindy]

The older thread mentioned in the above post talked about breaking up mailing lists and limiting them to 500 each. The question was asked but never answered: how long should you wait between each 500 mailing? Thanks.
Cindy

[Terra]

I would like to see a spread of one to two hours between queue injection...

This will allow time to remotely deliver your emails, and also clear out any backlog, caused by the large mailing, that came in during the bulk deliveries...

--
Terra
--The email problem is being turned upside down in order to derive a sideways solution--
FutureQuest

[Maverick]

Just a follow-up to something mentioned earlier. I just downloaded the freeware version of the Argosoft mail server for Windows 95/98.

The Good News: Mostly by trial and error, I got it working and it's sending mail from my own machine through my ISP with my webmaster@mydomanin.com as the sending/reply-to address. And, replies to that mail do indeed go back to webmaster@mydomain.com[nbsp][nbsp] Wahoo!

The Bad News: The documentation sucks. Getting it working was a matter of luck, effort and blindly throwing darts until one eventually stuck. Also, the freeware version doesn't support mailing lists.

Tomorrow I'll download the shareware ($49 to register) version of the upgraded "ArGoSoft Mail Server Plus" which does support distribution lists and other advanced features and see if that works out okay.

[sheila]

Maverick,

Sorry to hear about your difficulties installing ArgoSoft's mail server. I don't recall the documentation being that poor, but maybe I already knew what I was doing???

As far as it not supporting mailing lists, here are some other possible options:
(1) install Mercury mail server instead. It is free and supports mailing lists and has quite a few advanced features (this is what I am currently using to run my own mailing list). The software is available here:
http://www.pmail.com

The drawbacks: Personally, I found it more difficult to install that ArgoSoft. However, there is a very active support mailing list and support newsgroup.

(2) Probably a better option for you:
Use Pegasus mail reader to handle your mailing list. This is an e-mail client that supports "distribution lists". You could use Pegasus to send your mails to the free ArgoSoft mail server. Pegasus is written by the author of Mercury, and is available at the link above.

Of course, you can still go for the registered version of ArgoSoft, but thought you might want to at least look at Pegasus before doing so (it is also free). It might possibly serve your needs.

Good luck.

[Maverick]

Thanks for the idea Sheila. But since my I have PHP/MySQL installed locally and use a database on the site to collect and store the addresses, I just wrote up a little PHP script to handle the local delivery. I can do a mysqldump to collect the names before sending (the databases are backed up weekly via this method anyway), insert the values into the home database and run the script from there. It's not a particularly elegant solution, but there's not really an easy method to take addresses from an online sign-up form and transfer the names into a home machine. But since it only needs to be done about 6 times a year, it's not too much of a hassle. Eventually, I might even get ambitious and automate the process to make sure the home DB is updated with the latest mysqldump before it sends the mail. Either way, this method does work with the freeware version of Argosoft and doesn't require any other software.

[jelevin]

ez-mlm is ugly, but it does work reliably.[nbsp][nbsp]Wouldn't it be great if there could be some tweak that would throttle it back to only send out 500 mails per hour.[nbsp][nbsp]Or, even better to somehow sense the state of e-mail congestion and deliver at an appropriate rate.[nbsp][nbsp]It seems like that would serve everyone's needs.[nbsp][nbsp]No need for hard-to-enforce restrictions, just a matter of programming![nbsp][nbsp]Just a thought...

[Terra]

It's on the ToDo list, but the work won't be done on ezMLM itself but rather an unnamed successor...

We also need to work on the core outbound scalability first so we can determine proper rate limits...[nbsp][nbsp]No sense designing the engine unless the suspension works first...

--
Terra
--The gas gauge and tachometer will be standard on every model--
FutureQuest