question about macs from a pc user

[Shaytar]

Okay, I REALLY want to know:
how come Macs are so much smaller than pcs???? I mean, my friend had an old Mac (i have no clue what it was) but it was only about an inch and a half high. We, on the other hand, had a 386 desktop which was at least 5 inches high, if not six. What's with that???
How do they fit so much Mac into such a small space? and why don't pcs do the same??

And, how much are Macs compared to PCs?

Shaytar
(who almost got talked into buying a Mac, excpet that it was two weeks after we'd invested in a brand new PC)

[MikeA]

The reason that the macs are smaller is something called a riser board. Instead of plugging in devices (sound cards / Video cards / Etc) vertically to plug them into a riser card horizontally and the riser card plugs into the motherboard vertically.

Imagine an uppercase E to imagine what I'm talking about.

PC's employ this technology as well. Most of the new Dell PC's have riser boards and measure 4 1/2" tall. To get a case even smaller you would need the expansion cards to plug into the riser on both sides instead of just one, or limit the number of cards you can add to one or two.

Hope this helps.

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[Jacob Stetser]

Also, Apple's boards are generally engineered as a unit, whereas many of the PC manufacturers get their parts from a slew of different providers. Apple puts a lot of stuff on the motherboard that is extra (off the motherboard) on PCs, and that stuff takes less room.

The iMac is simply incredible in squeezing stuff in! Everything on the motherboard is soooo tiny.

Jake

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Fun signature will go here.

[pqwabbit]

hey haha we'll be house/bunny sitting for someone who has Macs so we'll let ya know what we think. He swears by em, but I'm not as excited - Ithink the MacPower Pc's are about the same size as regular pc's - at least inthe tower form - the one he has.
The interface drives me nutty too I know that much - bvut after two weeks of havig to make site updates and doing graphics and what not and email etc etc form this guy's mac - I'll lert ya know.
What I do hear consistantly is that they are the best copm[uters for graphics work and desk top publishing and stuff liek that

*sigh* still waiting for the flippin mailman to bring us backthe key to this place - they express overnighted itand the dang guy came at the exact moment we wetre inteh shower and aargh well - it got sent back to the PO cuz we never ame to the door aaaaarghhhhh!!
Lea

[pqwabbit]

bummer - seems these people took their puter with em hehe - I had ot go all teh way back home and brong mine back here - moniter and all (I'm getting hte scanner tomorrow - cuz I need to do photo work) *sigh* dang I was looking forward to palying with teh little video thingy!
ho hum (I need lap top man this luggin around a full size pc is not kewl!)
lea

[Shaytar]

Okay, I get it (even the techie stuff!)
Interesting about the riser board - i've never really considered the inside of a PC much.... installed a sound card once, and thinking about replacing a CD-ROM myself (if I can find all the drivers - don't have the disk apparently)

Can't afford a Dell - have a built piece by piece PC of no name, or rather, many names. Pentium processor, Cyrix motherboard, Acer CD-ROM, etc...

The iMac is umm... interesting... I don't like the fact that it doesnt' have a floppy disk drive., I know you can get an external one but blech! I carry disks back and forth to school too much. And the round mouse is just weird.
Actually, we think the iMac looks like our mini-stapler, which we'll someday illustrate online.

Lea, that's a bummer about luggin the puter around! :-( We've got the same prob wanting to take ours to the parents' house for a week! *sigh*

Thanks everybody!
Shaytar

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"Reality Sector Visitor Badge #9572
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[Terra]

My only problem with Macintosh is that they use alot of *closed* architecture, forcing you to purchase certified/authorized Mac components...

This can cost a substantial sum... I'm sure Apple will relax this quite a bit, as they realize the proprietary systems are *not* as cost effective, in light that the PC open architecture has proven to be *highly* succesful (even though the Mac technology is better designed in several areas)... Consumer cost is what drives the industry, and many are willing to sacrifice quality for price...

On a positive note - this architecture is one of the main reasons that Mac's are pretty darn stable as the hardware is designed to *very exacting* specs...

On the flip side - it stiffles alot of competition and innovation as the costs associated to this segment of the market outweigh the return...

PC == innovation, low-price, *tons* of software
Mac == stability, high-cost, designed from the get-go for graphics capability

A side note on the riser boards - Apple did do a remarkable design job on the circuitry, there is alot of complicated design issues concerning risers the inhibit the overall speed the 'riser bus' can handle, primarily in the realm of properly terminating the signals of the cards...

<vent on>
My ***biggest*** gripe between Mac / Windows / Linux is that the Mac/Windows do not use the same line endings...
Linux/Unix has proven for the last 30 years that all you really need for optimum functionality is: 'LF' (LineFeed)...
Yet Mac uses: 'CR' (Carriage Return)
and Windows: 'CRLF' (Brain Damaged)

Arrrggghhhhhhh -- Why couldn't they have used what's been established and proven???
</vent off>

This is the single most common problem with people using CGI scripts on the server, as the script will fail *unless* it's 'LF' terminated or uploaded in ASCII Mode...

Just my 4 cents for the day...

--
Terra
sysAdmin
FutureQuest

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--The best way to predict the future is by inventing it--

[Jacob Stetser]

I admit Macs are still more expensive than the cheaper PCs, but once you get into higher-end machines (those PCs whose speed actually match or exceed Macs), and even the higher end consumer PCs, you're usually at least approaching Apple's costs. For example, the iMac is considered to be a consumer Mac. I wouldn't compare it to those $500 PCs people talk about because I've owned a $500 PC.. slow, crappy parts, and the monitor is extra. Even in some of the $999 Gateway deals, you need a monitor, bringing the price up to about the iMac.

Also, the stability and quality of the Mac computers often end up keeping hardware repair and service costs lower than comparable PCs over the same time period. OTOH, if one DOES break down.. $$$ http://www.aota.net/ubb/frown.gif

OTOH, since I don't want to start a platform war, Apple has been bad about high prices but they are getting better, which makes me happy. The iMac was the first Mac I could afford =)

Apple has also improved its use of non-Apple technology, such as PCI, USB, PC RAM (SODIMM, in some of the newer machines), IDE, etc. They were the people who made Ethernet standard on all machines http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif Again, they used to be bad about this. But I'm happy to see they're improving, because I really see a new Apple coming out now.

(Rumor has it, Apple will be selling some of its PowerPC machines with a version of Linux on them... not Mac OS X, but real Red Hat Linux! That'll be interesting)

As for innovation, I think both sides have arguments for innovation.. for example, Apple invented FireWire (IEEE-1394) which is fast becoming a standard on everything from Digital Video to file transfer. I'm not so sure the closed-system of Apple stifles innovation, but on the other hand, it does slow down the releases of new Mac technology (see the cloning experiment and the CHRP motherboards, etc, that were coming out from cloners)

One very nice feature is that with an emulator, I can run any version of Windows on my machine at a pretty good clip. I also have a PPC native version of Linux too http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif (Try running the Mac OS on a Wintel machine)

iMac is _not_ a good machine for someone who needs to use floppies a lot http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

Anyhow, about your vent! Yes! Aaaaaaargh!

I had that problem about two weeks ago and it stopped one of my sites cold. I was poking through the PERL script trying to figure out what I'd done wrong. Only a few days ago did I figure out I'd saved with Mac line endings.

Aaaargh. Resaved with 'LF', uploaded in ASCII, and everything worked again.

Ok.. that's enough from me for now... y'all take care now, y'hear?

[MikeA]

Like Jacob said, the mac can run windows using emulator software, which is a very big plus. I've heard from other mac users that the emulator does a pretty good job, so the "lots of software" that Terra mentioned can now be ported to the mac.

You would think that if the mac can run windows, then a pc should run mac software, with an emulator. Wonder why no one (except one which doesn't quite look the same) has done it yet.

Another problem with mac (your right, not trying to start a war) is that they did let other people make there PC's for a while. But when other people could make a cheaper, better mac, the company "packed up their toys and went home" so to speak. I'll never understand why they pulled the plug on that one.

One of these day's I'll actually get a mac. I've always wanted one. I won't get an i-mac. I see to many possible problems with that.

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"To continue press any key"...Where's the anykey?

[Jacob Stetser]

The stated reason for the ending of the cloning experiment was that the cloners were eating away at Apple's own share of the market- and Apple doesn't make enough money from sales of the OS alone to keep going. Without Mac OS, says Apple, there is no Macintosh, clone or otherwise.

It's a shame that the cloning experiment ended, but I can understand the reasoning.

As for the iMac, I've had one since August (day after they came out) without a hitch. Of course, next fall I plan to get one of the top-end machines (when I can afford em http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif, but for now, I upgraded the RAM in the iMac to 192mb and it's a great little design machine, and affordable too! (No, not trying to sell you on them, just reporting that I'm a happy customer http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif )

Some people need floppy drives, however, or SCSI connections. Both are available in some form as third-party enhancements to the iMac, but for the people who need them built in, the iMac's not the best choice.

There are a few Mac emulators for the PC, but they run a much older version of the Mac OS, as opposed to VirtualPC for the Mac which runs all the current stuff. Part of the reason that Mac emulation on a PC is lagging is because it takes more power to emulate the Macintosh than it does a PC. The Mac OS takes a powerful processor (so does Win98 with IE, but that's another story http://www.aota.net/ubb/wink.gif )

Final note: when I do get a new Macintosh next fall, this iMac is going to become the cutest little Linux machine you ever saw!

[Justin]

I have two problems with the mac. One: I have always used a PC, since early dos (3.3) and probably always will, at least as my main machine. And two: I have always built my own machine, and that's not very easy with a mac.

Another thing: The imac is just wrong. It's like a Dodge Neon. Cars and Computers are supposed to look tough, not cute!

Not to start a war, I respect everything Apple has gone through over the years, and I hate M$ as much as the next person, but everyone has a preference. Wintel is mine (actually, AMD - WinAMD? Nah.)

I used a mac once, about a bunch of years ago. In fact, I think it was sitting next to an Apple II GS, and both were new. Anyway, I have no mac experience to judge by. The software thing helps PC's too, and ease of hardware upgrades. Plus, my programs wouldn't run on a mac, either. I don't think there's a mac version of visual basic...is there? http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

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Justin Nelson
The gentleman from Indiana's time has expired.

[Jacob Stetser]

Yes, sorta.

There's a programming IDE called REALBasic which imports VB forms and stuff. I've not used it to do cross-platform development, but you can write programs and compile to both Macs and PCs with pretty good speed. It, of course, runs on a Mac http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

I think the iMac is a good idea in that it breaks out of the beige box mold. I mean, computers are one of the last few items NOT to start adapting to humans instead of the other way around.

That said, I have an iMac. I like the way it looks, and I also get a lot of power work done on it- I use it for web and graphic design as well as layout all the time.

http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

Jake

[Justin]

I was just being silly about the look of the imac. I spraypainted my tower black because I hate that off-white color.

About the Visual Basic thing, I don't think my program would work on a mac without a full rewrite anyway - it's based on the Windows Media Player ActiveX Control. I'm sure it's possible, but not something that can be done automatically. Plus there's a lot of Win32 API calls, for the registry and MCI drivers and stuff. It is interesting, though.

Maybe my little CheapPad, a notepad replacement with a toolbar, would work http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

Justin