web design fees?

[gwlubin]

i am wondering what sort of design fees folks around here charge.

i have just started work on a site for an american medical foundation. the site comprises about 7 pages and includes a donation payment interface via Mals Ecommerce. For this, i am charging $700. It represents about two and half days work. I have also done some work with them to prepare their text for the internet, as i feel that what looks good in printed literature doesn’t always translate well onto the net.

i just finished a site here in the uk for an engineering consultancy www.secfinishes.co.uk (http://www.secfinishes.co.uk) and also charged them the equivalent of $700. they have now invited me to design sites for their clients. this job took me just less than 2 days, although i did do 3 different mock sites prior to winning the job, which probably took me another day.

based on the information i have given, by u.s. standards am i cheap or expensive.

how do you calculate design fees? is there a going rate? per page, per hour?

g/


[This message has been edited by gwlubin (edited 04-08-99).]

[Charles Capps]

Actually, fees tend to vary from agency/person to agency/person. I've seen prices by site, by page, by hour, etc.

The price is also higher (I've found, at least) for REALLY good designers. It also tends to be higher for true professionals and those that hand-code HTML.

Pricing is relative, therefore. *proudly declares this the Capps Theory of Internet Design Relativity*

http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

From what I can tell, your prices are "about right", though you didn't really specify how you charged.

------------------
"Okay, so I'm not "SANE" so to speak, but uh... I'm the lovable kind of psycho"
http://solareclipse.net/

[gwlubin]

dear charles,

i put myself in the amateur catagory, don't tell the client though.......

g/

[Boksoft]

It's hard to give you good advice but I think $700 for a 7 page site is a tad expensive.
I charge $125 for the first page and $50 for every other single page. Excluding extra graphics, CGI.
For CGI-scripts installation I charge from $25-$40 (no customization)
I have heard from clients that they had asked other companies for a quote too and they got figures of more than $1,000 - $10,000 back. They all thought those prices were ridiculous.
If you want to see some work I have done here are some urls:
http://www.linksls.net
http://www.fetishville.net
http://www.boksoft.com
http://www.boksoft.com/hendriks
http://www.boksoft.com/praktijk
Maybe I'm the one who should charge more...<grin>

[auteur]

An average for an hourly rate for someone just getting started whose looking to build a porfolio can run around $35 - $65/hour. The actual hours depends on hard-coding vs WYSISYG.



------------------
Elizabeth M. Miller
Getting You the Attention You Deserve!
www.123marketing.com (http://www.123marketing.com)

[gwlubin]

dear auteur,

what is this with hard coding?

hard coding doesn't necessarily = smarter website.

some of the most highly regarded and paid web designers use netobjects/drumbeat/d2/frontpage.

g/

[This message has been edited by gwlubin (edited 04-09-99).]

[Charles Capps]

HTML hand-coding usually means more work for the designer, thus a higher price sometimes... http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
"Okay, so I'm not "SANE" so to speak, but uh... I'm the lovable kind of psycho"
http://solareclipse.net/

[gwlubin]

i don't buy this hand coding thing. most of these guys are using wsiwyg and then de-bugging the output in raw html.

time is money, it's lunacy to think that folks are building large web sites bit by bit.

/g

[Justin]

Ok, I know this is a controvercial (sp?) subject, but I must interject my unasked-for 2 cents http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

I personally find it harder to fix FrontPage/Home Site/etc auto-generated code than to build it "bit-by-bit". I have always used Notepad and always will for all my HTML/CGI/PHP/CSS/JavaScript coding.

I know there isn't WYSIWYG editor that will do PHP... is there? I sure hope not...

Anyway, I guess it's the fact that I like to program as opposed to point and click to get things done (just personal opinion here). I tried Front Page when I first got started, and after looking at the code and figuring out how it worked, I cleaned it up. The file was about half the size and did the same thing as it did before.

I have viewed --> source on sites that try to hide the fact that it's FP by removing the <meta name="generator"... tags, but when you see things like this:

<P ALIGN="LEFT"><FONT SIZE=+1 COLOR="#FA949C">&amp;nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P ALIGN="LEFT"><FONT SIZE=+1 COLOR="#FA949C">&amp;nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P ALIGN="LEFT"><FONT SIZE=+1 COLOR="#FA949C">&amp;nbsp;</FONT></P>
<P ALIGN="LEFT"><FONT SIZE=+1 COLOR="#FA949C">&amp;nbsp;</FONT></P>

As opposed to



it's obvious where that HTML came from http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

Oh, I have a friend with his first web site. He thinks his site looks good. I won't judge his taste, but the problem is that his site only looks 'right' on his computer:

file:///C:\New%20Folder\wood.jpg

I keep telling him I don't have a "wood.jpg" on my computer, nor do I have any folders named 'New Folder'. So instead of seeing his wood-grain background I see yellow text on white. FP isn't smart enough to specify a BGCOLOR for those surfing without images on... or my friend isn't...

Either way, I find it faster for me to do it all by hand. My next site will have my little "Designed with Notepad" button I made just like all of my sites have/do/will. It also provides a hyperlink to file:///C:\Windows\Notepad.exe http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

Ok, anyway, don't take any of this personally. I have my preferences, and so does everyone else. Notepad is by far, IMHO, the best product MS has put on the market as of yet http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

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Justin Nelson
-- Not only am I tech support for FutureQuest, I'm also a client --

[This message has been edited by Justin (edited 04-09-99).]

[hearts]

my dear friend, Graham, I have to say, that if it were not for Netscape Composer, I never would have learned how to create htmls. I use WYISWG editors to help me out of a pinch.. for things I can't figure out.

Hand coding/hard coding doesn't make for a smarter website. I just feel it is personal preference.

Some things demand personal attention. Especially when working with various scripts.

I find it to be quicker most times to hand code. Either way, the talent is in the design and style! *smile*

-------------
hearts
-----

[gwlubin]

i take on-board everyones comments.

what i object to is this tyrany that says that hard code = better webs.

it simply isn't true.

i would wager that if you took a survey of major web sites, very very few of them would be designed bit by bit.

g/

[Charles Capps]

For larger sites, hand-coding CAN be done, if it's done creatively - use lots of SSIs, etc. It's impractical, but possible.

------------------
"Okay, so I'm not "SANE" so to speak, but uh... I'm the lovable kind of psycho"
http://solareclipse.net/

[gwlubin]

when i am home doing woodwork, sure i have a brace and bit somewhere around the house, but to get stuff done fast and accurately i get out my trusty Bosch powertools. i'm not proud.

the main site that i am responsible for has now grown to over 250 pages and is changing almost daily, i wouldn't be able to manage that without the excellent site management facilities in NOF.

when you cut your lawn do you use a sickle or a power mower?

i rest my case.

g/

[This message has been edited by gwlubin (edited 04-10-99).]

[Charles Capps]

Now, if there was a WYSIWYG tool out there that did NOT spit out inneffecient and excess code...

------------------
"Okay, so I'm not "SANE" so to speak, but uh... I'm the lovable kind of psycho"
http://solareclipse.net/

[Benson]

Dreamweaver 2 seems to produce as clean code as possible with WYSIWYG editors. Frontpage has been notorious for making slop. I've heard rumors that NOF and the new Adobe acquistion, GoLive Cyberstudio, aren't too "clean" either.

[Mandi]

I've been pretty happy with HomeSite from Allaire www.allaire.com (http://www.allaire.com) . I like the combo of no automated junk code, with buttons, shortcuts, etc. that automate tags. Color codes different classes of code for easy scanning.

[Boksoft]

HotDog pro doesn't edit your code either...

[axSean]

Hello, my name is Sean, and I am new to FutureQuest. I have seen two schools of thought on the subject of code vs wyswyg. And those who began by coding will swear by it. Web Design puts a roof over my head and food on my table, but I fall into the second category.

Functioning code is a bare minimum, but what _makes_ a web page, in my opinion, is the design element. I am constantly searching the web to see what is out there, and it breaks my heart to see a technical heavyweight not communicate to the user because of a "simple" design flaw.

Ka-Ching...I hope you all feel 2 cents richer http://www.aota.net/ubb/wink.gif

[gwlubin]

dear sean,

welcome! you are going to love it here.

i mainly agree with what you say, design is an important factor, i would rate communication as THE most important factor in a web site. a web site can be beautifully designed but still not get its essential message across.

i am presently going through an interesting learning curve.

at one time i only had to please myself in my designs, if i thought that a site that i designed was great, then it WAS great.

now, i am having to interpret the needs of paying clients and design sites that look good to THEM.

so far it is working, i bagged 3 jobs as recommendations from the first.

FQ is a great place to be, there is a wonderful community of folks here that will lend a hand at any time.

enjoy -

g/

[axSean]

I have a friend who makes alot of money designing systems. He once told that they might need my services to make their project "look pretty." He said this as if it was an unneccassary luxury. As with technical funcionality, I think think the visual construction is essential in todays marketplace.

I cant separate good design and effective communication, because, what we do is more than make thing "pretty." The code can make it run, but the visual design makes it work.
Before I did this type of work, I ran an autodetailing company. One day I was speaking to an old limo driver. He said "Son, there's nothing uglier in this world than a dirty Limo."

So, no matter how good it runs, I keep it clean.

[apm]

Hey,

SOrry for this late post.

WE do a bit of designing ourselves. We are a small startup, but based on our work and results for our clients site we have been able to get jobs.

It is very hard to give a definative pricing. As pricing depends on the quality and quanttiy of work required also what is desired from our clients perspective. AS in we offer 100% staisfaction guranteed. If you are saying 7 pages only and not additional programming and stuff just good graphics design we would charge around 400$-500$.

Take a look at some of our designs.

www.arc-max.com (http://www.arc-max.com) (the site will soon change)
www.tribologyindia.com (http://www.tribologyindia.com)
www.arc-max.com/fidelity/index.html (http://www.arc-max.com/fidelity/index.html) (stil lin alpha testing)

APoorva

[auteur]

WOW!!! I've been away from the forum for a long time, I didn't realize I dropped a bomb of a topic.[nbsp][nbsp]

If you read my post that started this, please note that I don't state that hard coding is better than WYSIWYG. I simply stated that the actual hours for rates depend on hard coding or not. It's much fast to create a page with WYSIWYG.
It's all in designer preferences. Hourly is hourly is hourly.

As to hard-code verse WYSIWYG... I prefer hard coding because I know it, I have my control and I create exactly what I want. HOWEVER, I do use WYSIWYG programs. For example, when I wanted to redesign my Celebrate Life website
I used MS. Publisher 98 trial version. I wanted it done quickly and I wanted a simple design. http://www.123marketing.com/celebratelife/ if you'd like to see it.[nbsp][nbsp]

MS Publisher assisted me with color ranges, since I don't have an eye for matching colors outside of the primary. :)

After I created each page, I tweaked the code to have the exact look I desired. Simply as that. :)


------------------
Elizabeth M. Miller
Getting You the Attention You Deserve!
www.123marketing.com (http://www.123marketing.com)

[Justin]

Well, if someone gets bored enough to write a WYSIWYG editor that does Javascript, CSS, PHP, and can handle URL's to where stuff's at (seen FP linking images to c:\web%20site\images one too many times :)) then I'll consider using it.

I will admit though, I did learn by disecting the output of FP (only because it came with Win98, and yes I only learned HTML after getting Win98 hehe). But once I learned it I started just doing it by hand. Now working with php, etc, I don't think a WYSIWYG editor would even come close to working.

My latest site, www.HostFacts.com (http://www.HostFacts.com), is 100% hand coded (see the &quot;Designed with Notepad&quot; logo at the bottom hehe:) ) and it's all PHP/MySQL :)[nbsp][nbsp]Just opened it to the public like an hour ago :)

Oh, well, just putting in my 2 cents again - sorry :)

Justin

[gwlubin]

it seems that your ideas on pricing are broadly in line with mine.

where we differ is that i remain unconvinced about the superiority of hand coded pages

g/

from the shores of the dead sea.

[Justin]

Ok, before I start, remember this is Justin talking, not FutureQuest...

I look at it like this. Say you use Front Page. Basically, you tell Microsoft what you want your web page to look like and they make your HTML for you. I think of it as almost like cheating... you end up so limited as to what can be done.

All HTML editors have one thing in common - they follow the rules (sort of). You can't do anything but simple web pages doing that. There are so many table tricks I know that no editor will do, no matter how hard you try to make it do it.

All HTML editors are behind the times too - I haven't seen one capable of php, SSI, and most won't do CSS, which is necessary for certain things. You can only do so much without CSS...

What would you do if you needed to do a php site, which needs to be connected to a MySQL database? I doubt front page would allow the php code to reside in any file it opens - I don't know about the other editors, but I know FP would bork it badly... and what about include directives? How can you design a page that needs to include a header or footer... you can't - whether it's SSI or PHP, the editor won't show the header or footer unless you copy/paste it in, and remove it before uploading, therefore defeating the purpose of using includes...

Maybe it's just me - but I've never seen Front Page as anything more than a tool that comes with Windows 98 to enable the newbie to make a home page to put on Geocities - I don't know - I personally could never do with a WYSIWYG editer anywhere near what I can do by hand - and I don't claim to be a web designer by trade at all - I only do stuff for myself really...

One last thing - if I didn't know how to make a web page and I hired someone to do a site for me, and I found out they used a program that anyone could download - I think I'd be upset. Why would I pay someone to open up a program and drag and drop some text and images...

<P ALIGN=&quot;CENTER&quot;><FONT SIZE=&quot;+1&quot; FACE=&quot;Arial&quot;>&amp;nbsp;</FONT></P>
<DISCLAIMER>
I do not mean any offence to anyone - so please don't take it that way. I am only expressing my personal opinions on the subject.
</DISCLAIMER>
<P ALIGN=&quot;CENTER&quot;><FONT SIZE=&quot;+1&quot; FACE=&quot;Arial&quot;>&amp;nbsp;</FONT></P>

Justin Nelson
www.HostFacts.com (http://www.HostFacts.com) [nbsp][nbsp]<-- 100% by hand in Notepad.exe :)
[This message has been edited by Justin (edited 05-08-99)]

[ChrisG]

Okay - I will give you some clues as to why WYSIWYG is not necessarily better than hand coded pages.

I have personally never come across a WYSIWYG which is able to create Multi Resolution Framesets.

This is where you can create an interface design with frames which will self scale itself to multi rez - in other words the design is based around a 800 by 600 rez screen - but it will be viewable at 640 through to 1280 without any major degrdation in the format of the frame design.
We are talking about complex designs here which are heavily graphic based - not simple background colour based system.

Then there is the multi-layer table system. Currently WYSIWYG can replicate multilayer system, but only in HTML 4.
It is possible to design websites like this in HTML 3, but
needless to say it needs the human touch in order to see the design though.

Then there is that awful point of cross browser compatibility......

There are 101 tricks to HTML which a WYSIWYG cannot replicate. It is these tricks which make the difference between a good website and an absolutely rocking website.

I find myself that design is a very personal, emotional matter. It is something which requires thinking about and this is something a computer cannot do.
Of Course you can tell it where to put things, but at the end of the day your design is only as good as the package you are using and seriously you cannot put your whole heart into the design.

I have tried them all - Hot Dog, Dream Weaver, HoT MeTaL, you name it.
What do I use at the moment - HTML ed32 Pro.
It is just a jumped up text editor with loads of HTML adaptions. But it give me total control of my output.

The Behaviour Group (my company/testing ground) previously set a policy when we were accepting submissions that WYSIWYG would never be used in our design work.
I have worked with companies like Shell, Amaze (multimedia in Liverpool) and I have over 10 web design companies who use me on a regular basis. If my sites were built in WYSIWYG, these companies would not be using me now.
I have, in total over the last 18 months put together over 400 websites for other design companies.
Time to humble Charles Capps here - Charles is an ex-Behaviour Group designer - he helped me to establish Star Trek Zone in 1997. I have to say that he is one of the most promicing up and coming designers I have met. His current designs surpass my own in their innovative thought and design ideas.
What do we have in common - we both code by hand.

I could rant on like this all night, however it all boils down to these simple facts.
In the beginning Windows was never used on the net.
People were forced to code their HTML by hand in packages such as Pico on UNIX boxes. I know one of these people - a good old fashioned &quot;spodder&quot;.
They are known as First Generation Designers.
People who code by hand on PC are Second Generation Designs utilising text editors or HTML text editors to build their websites by hand.
The third generation of designers are the ones who design in WYSIWYG. They swear by their packages.
The rifts which form between these groups can cause problems. (I personally remember myself and MSB having heated arguments about designing sites on my PC!)

There is no real right or wrong way to do a website. However the person with the most knowledge will always get paid more. I went for three interviews previously - each one tested my knowledge of HTML - I passed with flying colours.
However the guy behind me was a WYSIWYG buff - he walked out of the room, out of the building and was never seen again!

Any hoo....... nuff said - essay wrote!

[ChrisG]

LOL!

I go off line for 1/2 an hour to write this reply and Justin goes and says many of the things I said in my reply!

Sorry for the replication of any points.......... LOL!
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AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHH!!!

I feel better now......

[Charles Capps]

Heh, Chris, yeah, you're getting better at design.[nbsp][nbsp]At least you don't have blinding background images any more![nbsp][nbsp]Yikes!

Justin mentioned that there are just some things that WYSIWYG editors just can't do...[nbsp][nbsp]Well, that's why I don't use them.[nbsp][nbsp]I learned HTML through such an editor, and I am SO glad I don't use one anymore.[nbsp][nbsp]They are VERY limiting in the control of page layout, from what I've seen.[nbsp][nbsp]If I want something done, I want it done NOW, not after navigating my way through menus.

Then again, if you have a fifty page site, doing it by hand is more than impractical.[nbsp][nbsp]It's impossible![nbsp][nbsp]Well, nearly impossible.[nbsp][nbsp]WYSIWYG has its place.
------------------
"Okay, so I'm not "SANE" so to speak, but uh... I'm the lovable kind of psycho"
http://solareclipse.net/

[Deb]

Hmmm, I try to avoid this type of conversation as it's soooo easy to offend someone in the process... but I, as most, do have my feelings about it.

Four quotes from the above posts I agree with totally are:

Either way, the talent is in the design and style!EXACTLY![nbsp][nbsp]I have seen both good and bad that resulted from both WYSIWYG, Hardcoding, and those who use both.

Now, if there was a WYSIWYG tool out there that did NOT spit out inefficient and excess code...We could come up with thousands of editors, but the bottom line is they are going to put out the code in the shape of the rules and the programmers ideas of what's right and what's not.[nbsp][nbsp]In addition to areas where the idea is gray so you end up with the 'wasteful code' that Justin talks about because the programmer didn't find another way.

when you cut your lawn do you use a sickle or a power mower?This is where I utilize the services of the kids down the street ;)[nbsp][nbsp]Seriously though... I think those into lawn care would agree... we usually do it both ways.[nbsp][nbsp]First grab the power tools to get the bulk of the work done, then get down on our hands and knees to pull those pesky weeds out of the gardens.[nbsp][nbsp]I can not take a lawn mower to my Tulips, but I certainly can take the mower to the big grassy area around them.[nbsp][nbsp]Isn't it really the same for web design?[nbsp][nbsp]If I have a basic template and images for content pages, why not use a WYSIWYG editor for that area of my site, while remembering to hold the knowledge so that I can &quot;get down on my hands and knees&quot; to do the programming and more detailed areas by hand.

And the other two quotes I was particularly fond of were:FQ is a great place to be, there is a wonderful community of folks here that will lend a hand at any time.

:D

&quot;Son, there's nothing uglier in this world than a dirty Limo.&quot;;)

Personally I prefer handcoding... but I began with WYSIWYG editors... it's a two way street when you learn this way.[nbsp][nbsp]The editor got my feet wet and allowed me to not fear the code... but it also gave me many bad habits with the code that I am still working to overcome.

Deb
Beauty &amp; Worth are both in the eyes of the beholder.

[This message has been edited by Deb (edited 05-08-99)]

[teach1st]

I'm strictly an amateur when it comes to web design - I wouldn't know my CSS from my *SS and I thought SSI came in the mail as monthly checks.
Still, I &quot;design&quot; my student and teacher sites by hand, and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned using in place of NotePad a text editor specifically built for HTML and multi-paged web sites.
In my opinion, the best is NoteTab Pro.

www.notetab.com/features.htm (http://www.notetab.com/features.htm)

[ChrisG]

Ah! You are UK based....

*waves at Charles*

Okay lets talk in ££££

the going rate for web design in the majority of the UK at the moment is approx £100 per page.
The larger the site gets the better the discount becomes (bulk work principle)
Hence 10 pages usually works out at £600-700.

The equation I use is something like 1 Page = 1 hour + 1 hour of redesigns/admin
Based Rate is £50 an hour.

So really the question is how much do you want to earn an hour and what is your overheads.
I for example work for other web design companies as a freelancer.
They range from one company who pays me £50 an hour (grins) right down to my worst, but most regular client, who pay be about £7 an hour.
When my company takes on commercial development work though, I usually charge a basic rate of £25 an hour - 2 Page website is £100 expecting that the average development and admin time is going to be around 4 hours.

As for what you charged - you are basically about right.
£22.50 per hour..........

Hope that helps ;)

Oh - yeah - it does also depend on how you build site and how good you are - I have been developing sites for years now (4 years+) and many people think I am good (waits for CC to have a go!).
The Client who pays me £7 an hour gets £7 worth of work per hour.
The client who pays me £50, get the whole hog!
In addition if you use WYSIWYG your rates will automatically be lower than a person who knows HTML off the top of their head.

I am going now....... LOL!
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AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHH!!!

I feel better now......

[ChrisG]

I did - I use HTML ed32.......


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AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHH!!!

I feel better now......