Netscape slowly dying...

[tedloh]

Thought you might like to see this:

http://www.salon.com/tech/log/1999/09/10/andreessen/index.html

and a quick quote:

For all practical purposes, Netscape's browser, which was to the Net what the Model T was to the highways of the early part of this century, is dead. Every month, more and more Web surfers switch to Microsoft; Netscape's market share hovers at 33 percent, down from 60 percent or more a couple of years ago. America Online hasn't even switched its own users to Netscape from Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser -- essentially the equivalent of McDonald's buying Pepsi and yet still serving Coke.

Pretty soon I may be able to forget designing for Netscape - if everybody finally adopts open standards.[nbsp][nbsp]Netscape was once my favorite weapon for attacking the Web:[nbsp][nbsp]now it is my worst enemy and thorn in my side.[nbsp][nbsp]Most of this article describes what AOL did to Netscape - but the telling paragraph is what you read above.



------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work in progress)
ted@tygresystems.com

[Justin]

Can I say :) without upsetting any hardcore Netscape fans? ;)[nbsp][nbsp]Just kidding, but I do like IE better (especially since 5.0)... although there's still Opera to design for :)

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[Bi4Be]

*sigh* Lets all of the hardcore NS fans get upset but discuss the facts. I would have to be one of them. :(

Microsoft's aggressive marketing over the past 2 years has finially paid off. Netscapers are only a third of my web site visitors, and only six months ago it counted for half.

What can NS do?!? They can't do anything, there original plans to have people help out all over the world failed and on top of that Microsoft knew exactly what strings to pull/buttons to push to bring NS to its knees. All NS can hope for AOL to cut deals, get a new version, and distribute it to new AOL sign-ups. And why isn't that happenning?!? You would think that is what AOL would do being in a fight/brawl with Microsoft, wouldn't you? That baffles me.

-Bi4Be

PS: I have to apologize to you guys in advance because I see you having to design netscape-compatible pages for many years to come. I swear I am going to be using NS 4.04 til` at least the year 2001. Anyone with me? :)

[sheila]

PS: I have to apologize to you guys in advance because I see you having to design netscape-compatible pages for many years to come. I swear I am going to be using NS 4.04 til` at least the year 2001. Anyone with me?
Me. And I'd probably switch to Opera after that before I'd make IE my regular browser. I have IE on my desktop because we recently installed Win98 over our old Win95. I use it for checking my web page compatibility. That's about it.

[elite]

This is what they can do: http://home.netscape.com/partners/distribution/index.html

Its a pretty good marketing technique if you ask me.. You can benifit and they benifit from people using there browser :)

[Armand]

Netscape for me at least is much faster... though I see the switch in my users... I don't understand it.[nbsp][nbsp]My 4.07 is still much faster than IE 5 so I just don't get it.

[elite]

Much faster for me as well.[nbsp]

[elite]

Plus I can use it for multi users which I dont think you can with IE

[hearts]

No matter what, I am gonna use my version of Netscape til I can't no more! I am very dedicated to my Netscape program, even if I am the minority. ;)

Like everything else that AOL puts their hands on, they ruined it. Not surprised at this fact... chalk it up to another AOL disaster!

I am with ya Bi4Be! Loyal to the end![nbsp]
------------------
hearts
-----
Heartistic Wishes[nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp]www.heartisticwishes.com (http://www.heartisticwishes.com)[nbsp][nbsp]

[Bi4Be]

Sure the branding of the software is a good feature of marketing, heck that is probably why Bellsouth Dot Net (my ISP) distributes it so widely,[nbsp][nbsp]but that is hardly enough to recoup it's current losses.

Now why do people choose MSIE? It is unavoidable. It is in Windows, AOL, and everywhere else you look. They aren't choosing, they are just using what they have. They are not going to Netscape's website to download a program for an hour and a half when they already have a browser. The way I see it, only OS's and AOL could help NS now. What they need is to have it distributed to as many PC's as possible, nothing else will help.

The AOL/Microsoft/Netscape thing still baffles me, and noone who has viewed this post can come up with an explanation. (ahem! :) )

Lets face it, I guess Microsoft won. MSIE has truely become the choice of the people.


--
-Bi4Be
http://www.bid4beanies.com
http://www.beanieadnetwork.com

[Justin]

I have to disagree though - I downloaded Netscape 4.08, and I use IE out of choice (heck, downloading IE5 took a lot longer than downloading Netscape). It was here when I installed 98, IE4 is on probably a few CD's I have from various ISP's, a copy came with my last 2 modems, etc - so yes, the have one hell of a marketing scheme. But the point is, in my opinion, IE5 is a better browser.

I won't bore anyone with the details of why I prefer IE, because it's almost like religions - I am not going to convince you and vice-versa, so no point arguing. Just wanted to make it clear that I do make my own choices - I like Outlook Express, even (especially) after having downloaded over 10 other email clients.

I have on my PC various versions of Netscape, Opera, and even the Web TV browser thing (which is pretty neat, BTW :)), and I choose to use IE except for compatibility checking etc.

Ok, me stop rambling now - I will admit that, while I don't much care for Netscape, I don't want to see it die - because if things went as planned with the open source thing, it may have become a good browser - but as it stands now, at 4.08, it does not have me convinced (have tried 4.5 as well, with no real differences...)

The above are just my opinions, BTW, and of course are not meant to offend anyone :)

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[Bi4Be]

No offense intended, none taken, Justin. :)

Sure techie people will download and wait etc. but will your average joe-schmoe computer-illiterate newbie do so?

And yes, IE5 is not once, not twice, but thrice as good as the latest version of NS. NS is a poor mal-nurished child left to bloodily stagger to a death, unless AOL decides to take punches towards MS by helping it.
It shouldn't die.

If it ever dies, it would have been the most disrespectful and tragic ways of handling a company. I promise that when I grow up to be the next Bill Gates, I will strike back with avengense at the companies that brought NS down! :) lol

[teach1st]

NS is a poor mal-nurished child left to bloodily stagger to a death, unless AOL decides to take punches towards MS by helping it.

Maybe, but the fat, well-fed child keeps crashing my system. NS, even if staggering and unfed, is very stable for me. That is about all it has going for it, in my view. I've been using NS forever, but now would use IE if only it didn't crash all the time. Sure, it's probably something on my end - I just can't figure out what.

If NS would support multiple identies more seamlessly, if they'd streamline and modernize their interface a bit, and if they'd do something about how their browser interprets tables, they'd go a long way toward gaining back at least some of their customer base.

[pqwabbit]

*sigh* I realy abore M$IE - you couoldnt pay me enough to use it - I havea npoticed a steady decline int Metsacpe in my stats - on my personal site Netscape used to be the browser of choice -now its down to a lousy 30 % roughly :/
at MA HRS - IE alwasy was the most popular browser and now even more so - I am noitcing that IE 5 still hasnt caught on as much - as in most people hwo come to these sites use IE 4 - then again myabe they have no clue how to upgrade things.
IE 4 alone accounts for 44% of the browser use at my personal site.[nbsp][nbsp]
crap Ill beusing the last version of Netscape for eons - not too mentionall my makjor email is tied up on it.[nbsp][nbsp]Thats anotehr thing I dont liek about IE - the email program isnt as integrated - I liek the Netscape mail cuz when I;m browsing I get alerted withou having to run a separate program for it.
that always annoyed me about IE5

[teach1st]

I agree about mail notification. I've tried other mail notification programs so I could run IE more, but haven't found any I like. OK, NS has two things going for it in my view - stability and mail notification. I can't understand why IE hasn't added mail notification and why NS hasn't supported multiple identities (better).

Just as an aside, I use two e-mail programs. NS notifies me about mail and lets me read it quickly. Pegasus clears the mail from server at the end of the day and sorts it all. I figured if I kept mail duplicated in two separate programs it would be twice as hard to lose the important stuff. But it doesn't work. Instead, I'm simply twice as likely to lose it. Sigh

[Bi4Be]

Sorry MS fans, but I take back everything I said about IE5 probably being better! I downloaded it tonight, it is the same friggin' thing as the 4.x's!

Teach1st, I wasn't dissing NS with the malnurished child metaphore! I love NS, I was just pointing out the facts and stating the sad but obvious.

So far we have heard from mostly NS fans, so where are the MS lovers?!? I promise all of us won't attack you guys and start browser wars :) . Just intelligent discussion about something important.

-Bi4Be

[sheila]

One thing to consider...
If Linux gets any kind of serious market share over Windows for PCs, then there might be a reason to use NS, since MS won't run on Linux.

[elite]

Well its hard to compete with IE as all of Windows computers come with it now adays :(

[MTDesigns]

I'm a Netscape lover and proud of it :).[nbsp][nbsp]If I switched I would miss my Netscape email, the way pages are viewed, and my popular bookmarks just one link away under the location bar :).

Joi~

[tedloh]

Whoa![nbsp][nbsp]Opened up a hornet's nest here - 18 replies overnight![nbsp][nbsp]So I guess it's my turn...

Re: Netscape - it is buggy, and it is unstable, and in many ways resembles the first time I installed IE 4.[nbsp][nbsp]But even after many updates, Netscape has been nothing short of a disaster - and I haven't even talked about designing web pages for Netscape yet!

When Netscape was still v.3, it was totally awesome.[nbsp][nbsp]IE3 couldn't hold a candle to it.[nbsp][nbsp]But IE3 was out only a few short months before IE4... and Netscape couldn't keep up after that.[nbsp][nbsp]Who would've even THOUGHT of designing a web page for IE back then?

This doesn't mean that IE4-5 are not buggy - they are indeed - but they generally prove to be more stable than Netscape on my own machine as well as my customers and friends.[nbsp][nbsp]What it comes down to, IMHO, is this:

1.[nbsp][nbsp]IE4-5 is bundled with Windoze.
2.[nbsp][nbsp]IE4-5 is more tolerant of web design mistakes.
3.[nbsp][nbsp]Netscape, since going open source, has gone to pot.
4.[nbsp][nbsp]MOST people out there will use IE because they are too lazy or afraid to load another browser like Netscape - I guarantee this number is well over 50% - probably would be higher if they didn't let their friends install Netscape and take the risk for them.

I don't want Netscape to die.[nbsp][nbsp]Just like I didn't want Cyrix to die, and I don't want AMD to die.[nbsp][nbsp]But that doesn't force me to use their products, nor does it force me to love Microsoft.

The deal with AOL/Netscape/Microsoft, as I understand it, is that AOL bought Netscape to let it die - because no way in the world would AOL dump Microsoft and all the free users they get from being one of the "Online Services" bundled with Windoze.[nbsp][nbsp]They couldn't have it both ways - even though they are in a "messaging" war now.[nbsp][nbsp]Begin to wonder why AOL hasn't dumped Net Buddy in favor of ICQ yet???

IE is not necessarily the choice of the people - it's just a fact of life that it's always present.[nbsp][nbsp]And as long as it's reasonably okay, people will learn to live with it - in one short word - CONVENIENCE.

And Sheila - if Linux ever takes a stronghold, you just know Microsoft will design IE for it - or else buy it :)[nbsp][nbsp]It's hardly their style to ignore a potential challenger!

As someone pointed out earlier, we could always distribute Netscape.[nbsp][nbsp]Which I would be more than pleased to do - but ONLY if it lived up to my standards.[nbsp][nbsp]Frankly, I want to see how Netscape 5 (Gecko) does...[nbsp][nbsp]but I sure ain't holding my breath for Netscape 6.

Just for the record:[nbsp][nbsp]I have preferred IE since v4.01.[nbsp][nbsp]I wouldn't touch IE with a 10-foot pole before that time.

Maybe it's time I had a look at Opera...

------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work in progress)
ted@tygresystems.com

[Justin]

In my experience with IE and Netscape, I have found that IE is a lot more stable. I will not claim that it is bug free or anything, but it very rarely crashes - and I typically have a few browser windows open most of the day. IE5 has improved a lot in that regards - and unlike IE4, when IE5 crashes it doesn't take all open IE windows with it.

Netscape 4.08 is easy to crash - just about any time I go to a heavy shockwave site it will GPF on me...

As for the browser itself, Netscape doesn't even claim to be partially CSS compliant, which is good because the support for CSS is very poor and buggy... I think Opera supports it better. When designing sites, I have to add a lot of redundant code just for Netscape.

However, if there is no competition, IE may not improve as it has - competition is good in any business for the end user. I'm sure MS will continue to improve IE, but there will not be as much pressure to do so without Netscape.

Bi4Be - there are a lot of improvements in IE5 over version 4[nbsp][nbsp]- most of them are bug fixes and speed tweaks, but for an IE user, they are quite noticable. I will admit that when browsing locally, Netscape is in fact just a tiny little bit faster, with Opera being the absolute fastest I've ever seen - but when cruising on a 56k dialup you can't tell anyway ;)[nbsp][nbsp]And IE5 is a lot faster than 4.x was (although if I had a faster CPU I probably wouldn't notice anyway).

I will stop rambling for today and drink my morning coffee now :)

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[tedloh]

Oh yes it does, Justin... IE5 does take all my windows with it when it crashes :([nbsp][nbsp]Not every time but at least 4 out of 5 times...

Netscape is not necessarily any faster than IE5... it appears that it renders a bit faster only when the proper syntax is used.[nbsp][nbsp]It's either slower or does not render correctly with the incorrect syntax, though...

Digging through my mound of CDs for Opera... will let you know what I think later!

------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work in progress)
ted@tygresystems.com

[zeegraf]

I have both Netscape 4.6 and IE5.0 on my system and to be honest, can't tell any difference regarding performance between the two. AAMOF, Opera 3.6 is my regular browser due to my disgust with the entire bloatware concept.

For that matter, I'm completely burned out on the Windoze platform, period. I've played with Redhat Linux off and on for the past few months but never gave it steady usage,due to not having a compatible modem. I finally got off my you-know-what and found a Zoom external on eBay. Once that sucka gets here I am going to try my best to get off the Windows teat...

[sheila]

tedloh wrote:if Linux ever takes a stronghold, you just know Microsoft will design IE for it - or else buy it
Well, they can't buy Linux. Due to the GNU liscense and the number of different programers who have contributed to Linux, it would be impossible for anyone to buy Linux. Linus Torvalds himself has said that he is glad of this, so that he won't have to worry about ever being tempted by a potential offer. Of course, they could buy one of the distribution companies, such as Red Hat, but there would still be plenty of other ways to get Linux.

Would they develop for Linux? Dunno. Suppose it's possible.

As far as Netscape crashing, I had forgotten, until you brought it up, how bad I initially thought the early releases of NS 4 were. We stayed with NS 3 for quite a long time. We tried out Ns 4.0x and found it very buggy. But we've been running 4.61 for several months, now, and it is pretty stable. One thing I found that was a problem with it...there is some kind of bug reporting component of the program that is supposed to store info about crashes and bugs and every once in a while when you go online, it's supposed to send that info to the Netscape developers. After a short time, I noticed that my NS usually was crashing shortly after that component of the program had run (I forget what it was called), so I deleted it.

I suppose that is beyond the skills of the average Joe.

[pqwabbit]

After a short time, I noticed that my NS usually was crashing shortly after that component of the program had run (I forget what it was called), so I deleted it.

I had the exact same problem - with that - drove me nuts!
Suppose the theory was good - reporting bugs so they could be worked out - but it really messed things up. Ironic.

Lea
------------------
Bunnies make life better.
Massachusetts House Rabbit Society, Inc.
http://www.MAHouseRabbit.org/

[tedloh]

Microsoft would find some way to buy up all the major distributors of Linux ... LOL - but seriously, of course Linux can't be bought.[nbsp][nbsp]The correct answer is that IE would be developed for Linux, there is no way MS will give up any large stake in any market it controls - same with AOL.

Now, 4.61 is the one that crashes on my system regularly.[nbsp][nbsp]Perhaps that component you were talking about has something to do with it - and I'm no average Joe - but to me that is not realistic for us to have to do our own bug fixes, simply because the public at large won't be able to do so either.

That, then, is why I still try to design for Netscape, even though it is the bane of my existence!

------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work in progress)
ted@tygresystems.com

[Bi4Be]

<quote>Linus Torvalds himself has said that he is glad of this, so that he won't have to worry about ever being tempted by a potential offer.</quote>Ahhh Linus, you gotta love that guy! Clearly an angel to be exalted compared to Microsoft. Nowadays, it seems that the computer industry is growing feircer and feircer and meaner by the minute.[nbsp][nbsp]PLUS he was born in Finland (just like me!), stunk at sports (just like me!), and programmed when he was 12 (just like me!).


-Bi4Be
~Downloading Opera Right Now, 33 Seconds Left~

[sheila]

~Downloading Opera Right Now, 33 Seconds Left~

So let us know how you like it. Maybe we can start a new thread discussing Opera. I'm too busy to try it out right now, but if someone raves about it I might be tempted to investigate it in a week or three. Give us the pros/cons.

[zeegraf]

So Sheila was all like:


So let us know how you like it. Maybe we can start a new thread discussing Opera. I'm too busy to try it out right now, but if someone raves about it I might be tempted to investigate it in a week or three. Give us the pros/cons.


Opera is significantly faster than the &quot;big two&quot; MOST of the time. It's Java support is through Sun's plugin, however, and the browser is much slower at viewing pages with this type of content. And it seems that some Java/Javascript makes it choke -- 80% of the time when I attempt to load a Xoom member page, the browser crashes when it encounters the navigation/advertising tool that Xoom places on its member pages.

If you don't mind browsing with Java disabled, Opera is an excellent program. Its multiple window management is excellent. I've had as many as fourty browser windows open at once and my system never even blinked...

[This message has been edited by zeegraf (edited 09-15-99)]

[Bi4Be]

To put it simply, Sheila, OPERA SUCKS! :D

[sheila]

To put it simply, Sheila, OPERA SUCKS!
Well, I have to say that I am shocked. That's the very first extremely negative comment I've heard about Opera from anyone who used it. Can you give us the top two or three reasons that it sucks?

[Bi4Be]

Well, despite the extreme negativity of that comment I really meant a couple of things. ;)

-It is almost nothing compared to NS and IE, and by downloading it you are just getting a 30 evaluation copy. So they actually expect me to PAY for it? This is all fine and well for those few who boast &quot;they have finally found THE solution&quot; but Opera isn't going to catch on because you have to pay to register it.
-It seems to lack a few of the most primitive features that MSIE and NS have. It isn't anything great or fancy, it is a quick download for a quick program. The only thing I can see people wanting this for is if it doesn't crash as often.

[zeegraf]

Bi4Be laid this on us:

-It is almost nothing compared to NS and IE, and by downloading it you are just getting a 30 evaluation copy. So they actually expect me to PAY for it? This is all fine and well for those few who boast &quot;they have finally found THE solution&quot; but Opera isn't going to catch on because you have to pay to register it.
-It seems to lack a few of the most primitive features that MSIE and NS have. It isn't anything great or fancy, it is a quick download for a quick program. The only thing I can see people wanting this for is if it doesn't crash as often.


What problems did you have with Opera, and what features do you find lacking? It's not supposed to be another IE or NS. The authors are aware that some users want more advanced email or newsgroup features, but these will be available as plugins or modules, and purely optional.

The only gripe I have with Opera is its clumsy support for Java. And even this isn't much of an issue, since I usually browse with Java turned off.

Sure they're going to charge for it -- they're not a huge company who can afford to give their product away. They have no illusions about being the next big browser company. Still, there's enough interest where the product is being ported to Mac, *nix, BeOS, and other OSes.

[Justin]

I've have Opera 3.51 installed for quite a while - the 30 day evaluation period only counts days you actually use the browser - a really nice concept :)[nbsp][nbsp]I still have about 10 days left on it since around December...

The one thing I do not like about Opera is the MDI (Multiple Document Interface). MDI means that each window is within the parent window, and that really sucks when running dual desktop. MDI was a thing of the 3.1 days, and the trend has gone away from it since '95. There are certainly uses for an MDI interface, but a web browser is not one of them IMHO (especially when popup windows come popping up - Opera gets weird...)

It's faster than IE or Netscape, though - I'll give them that. But the JavaScript support is poor. I am impressed nonetheless, and I do use it once in a while (even if just to check for compatibility, I usually surf around a while just to see the world (wide web) from a different view :))

All in all, it is not a cheesy browser - I agree it is nothing compared to NN and IE, but keep in mind that Opera's target audience is those who are tired of the big two and want something fast and without the bells and whistles.

I personally use IE 99.99% of the time, having Netscape, Opera, and the WebTV emulator (or whatever it's called) around for web site compatibility checking... but Opera is a halfway decent browser - I certainly wouldn't say it sucks!

;)

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[tedloh]

Finally, got a chance to try Opera 3.6.

In short:[nbsp][nbsp]Not worth the extra hassle.

Long story:[nbsp][nbsp]Default installation does not support Java (have to use plug-in), does not support background jpegs, does not flush up against top left (even though page has both IE and Netscape workarounds for that).

I can't possibly be bothered to try and design for THREE different browsers, unless I want to look just like every other page out there and do a standard 600-pixel table.[nbsp][nbsp]This might make sense to some people, but to me it does not.[nbsp][nbsp]Kind of like broadcasting in black &amp; white just because not everybody has a color TV.

It's not a bad browser - but it is one I don't think I will take into consideration for the time being.

Next mission - find a copy of Gecko, and give Netscape one last chance.

------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work in progress)
ted@tygresystems.com

[tedloh]

LOL.[nbsp][nbsp]Well, honestly Sheila - it was about a 10 minute evaluation.[nbsp][nbsp]I suspect some of those things could possibly be enabled if I were to search for them - but I was more interested in what worked by default.

After I wrote that, I tried it on my test page - and quite frankly my page was totally unusable - none of the gif-links loaded, nor did my mini-map at the bottom of every page.[nbsp][nbsp]I found that hard to believe![nbsp][nbsp]Needless to say, I was even MORE displeased with Opera then!

Gecko is still beta AFAIK - or maybe alpha LOL.[nbsp][nbsp]Never seen a link for testing it, but then I haven't looked very hard...[nbsp][nbsp]and I don't always like betas either but in this case it will tell me enough of what I want to know.[nbsp][nbsp]I tested Win95, Win98 and IE betas as well, because I knew my customers would require support for them.

------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work in progress)
ted@tygresystems.com

[Bi4Be]

I didn't mean to dis on Opera badly, although that is what it sounded like. The java is one of my main probs and then there's the mail. It is half decent like as one of you said, but half decent is NOT what I would settle for in a browser (of course there are some people who will/would).

And in total agreement with Ted, it is not worth the extra hassle of designing a page for even if a corporate/business page should be ready for all. I don't even consider it. And besides, I don't think it is in anywhere of my stats as a top agent anyways.

Just my measly 2 cents.... ;)

[sheila]

...my main probs and then there's the mail. It is half decent like as one of you said, but half decent is NOT what I would settle for in a browserWell, this is one of the things I have never understood, although I'm clearly in the minority: using a browser to handle mail and news. I use separate apps designed specifically for that.And in total agreement with Ted, it is not worth the extra hassle of designing a page for ... anywhere of my stats as a top agent anyways.I wouldn't design for it either. Not that my page gets many hits, but I haven't had anyone browsing it in Opera. Have had a few hits in Lynx, though.


[This message has been edited by sheila (edited 09-18-99)]

[sheila]

ted,
Thanks for your eval of Opera...the most useful one I've seen so far.Next mission - find a copy of Gecko, and give Netscape one last chance Has Gecko been officially released? I know I'm not interested in mucking around with beta versions.

[YFS200]

Guess it's my turn. Never did like IE, crashed way to often, bloatware, and was slow.(like Windoz) NS a bit better, but still was on the bloatware side, and my computer slowed down a LOT if I opened up more then 5 windows.

I have been using Opera 3.51 for at least 6 months. I use separate programs for mail and news, so I can't report on them.

Sure there is a few bugs, but over all, I like it. It's fast and small. Hardly ever crashers too. I often leave it running for weeks with no problems and no crashes. Often load 15 web pages at the same time, walk away to eat lunch,(slow connection) and when I come back, it's all loaded and waiting for me.

I have been to a lot of sites, and it works perfect with 99.5% of them. JavaScript works well, but real Java support is poor, and it has problems with sites that use Java for links, or heavy Java programs. Not exactly the best HTML practice to use Java only for links. And if it's a site I really need to get to, I will fire up NS. Does not happen often.

And don't worry about writing HTML just for Opera. Just write good code and it will work. The few problems I have seen are not worth it.

I really like the camera icon. I can turn off all graphics or don't load the graphics but keep the spacing as if the graphics where loaded. I often keep graphics off when entering a graphic heavy site. Just right click and hit &quot;Show Image&quot; and it will download just that one.

The scaling feature is also nice. Just can't live without dropping the page to 80% for more viewing area. Really helpful for those pages that scroll off the side of the screen.

There is also the customable right click menu. Sure is handy right clicking on a field and inserting the password.

I don't have any but the basic plug-in. 99% of the sites don't use them. And the few that do, I load up NS. Let the plug-ins slow it down.

Program to the browser you want. But I will be using Opera to view it.

YFS200



[nbsp]

[tedloh]

Hmmm...[nbsp][nbsp]are you sure those 99% and 99.5% figures are accurate?

I have checked my code against plenty of other sites, none too fancy, and they are very similar.[nbsp][nbsp]So if I pull up Opera, and my site looks bad, I suspect it would be similar with some other sites.

So, lemme go check some other sites...

site #1 - www.icat.com (http://www.icat.com) - FAIL
site #2 - www.sharkyextreme.com (http://www.sharkyextreme.com) - FAIL
site #3 - www.msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.com) - FAIL

enough already.

I can only draw one of two conclusions - either Opera 3.6 is significantly different than Opera 3.5x, or else you have customized the way your Opera works, whereas I used it the way it was installed.

I stand by my analysis - limited, but more than enough for me.

I must admit, though, I really do like that scaling feature.[nbsp][nbsp]Would love to see IE/Netscape implement that.

As for good code... LOL... I know my code is spaghetti![nbsp][nbsp]But for those three sites above with tremendous traffic, I doubt that is the case.[nbsp][nbsp]I think Opera is probably either cutting some corners, or being too strict on HTML 3.2 compliance.

------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work in progress)
ted@tygresystems.com

[YFS200]

Ok. I went to each of your listed sites and did some screen captures. I could not get NS 4 working for some strange reason, so I used 3.04.

http://www.blastercentral.com/Temp1/op_v_ns/

site #1 www.icat.com (http://www.icat.com)

NS displayed it fine. But with OP, the left menu bar is is off. I checked into the code and noticed a missing <TR> and </TR> tags. After I put them in, it displayed fine.


site #2 www.sharkyextreme.com (http://www.sharkyextreme.com)

NS totally botched this one. Junk at the top and missing menu bar. I reloaded a few time with no help. OP did not have a problem. Strange.


site #3 www.msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.com)

Worked good in both. OP did have some spacing issues, but nothing that is going to affect anything but the looks. I can live with that.


As for good code... LOL... I know my code is spaghetti!**But for those three sites above with tremendous traffic, I doubt that is the case.**I think Opera is probably either cutting some corners, or being too strict on HTML 3.2 compliance.


It's strange how it works. But I think your right. OP likes to see good HTML. We all know NS and IE will eat about anything.

I write HTML for OP. If it works for it, it should work in all the other browsers. But I am nuts. I used something just a tad more powerful then Notepad to do my site.:)

YFS200[nbsp][nbsp]

[nbsp]

[tedloh]

Give you the Icat one.

SharkyExtreme lost its entire masthead, which confirmed what I had thought - that Opera 3.6 does not correctly display background images.[nbsp][nbsp]Funny that it should work with whatever you're using, though...

As for MSNBC, the spacing was out - all the headlines were positioned above everything else in their own cell.

Funny... your MSNBC gif looks fine.[nbsp][nbsp]But Sharky and Icat showed more or less as mine did - except you missed the masthead on Sharky.[nbsp][nbsp]I can confirm that NS 4.6 displays Sharky just fine, masthead and all.

BTW, my HTML editor *is* Notepad! :)[nbsp][nbsp]Actually, it's Wordpad, but same thing :)[nbsp][nbsp]A tad more powerful LOL.

------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work in progress)
ted@tygresystems.com

[tedloh]

LOL!

Yes, it is a slightly complicated site.[nbsp][nbsp]But essentially that's a background graphic - the only extra was the search box incorporated into that masthead.[nbsp][nbsp]It does exactly the same with my site.

Opera, I sincerely hope, is going to pull out all the stops with 4.0.[nbsp][nbsp]There's nothing I like more than competition.[nbsp][nbsp]It only results in more choice for the consumer.

I will look at it when 4.0 comes out, you can be sure.[nbsp][nbsp]But my d/l of Gecko just arrived, so guess what I get to try next? ;)

------------------
Ted (Chief Do-It-All)
Tygre Systems Co Ltd
Bangkok, Thailand, Land of Smiles :) :)
http://www.tygresystems.com (work in progress)
ted@tygresystems.com

[YFS200]

Well, I did a bit more digging into SharkyExtreme's header. On OP, I scrolled it off the screen when I did the screen capture. True, the graphic is missing, but you can still click on all the links you can't see. :)[nbsp][nbsp]NS 3.04 totally died and displayed junk. It looks fine in NS 4.

Taking a close look at the code, it's not a background image, but they used some strange combo of CSS and Java to get the image up. Taking into affect that NS 3.04 spilled it's guts trying to display it, OP did quite well trying it's hand at it.

You must admit that OP is quite good for a company that does not have multimillions of bucks behind it. It works well on sites that are not using bleeding edge HTML. And most of the problems are cosmetic at most.

But shoot, this is America, use what ever browser you like. :)

Eddie
AKA YFS200[nbsp][nbsp][nbsp]