Mass Emailing

[Darrell]

Hi,

Why do you want to 'Spam' 5K to 10K people from this server?

You say that only one has sent you asking to be removed? Is that so?
I don't asked to be removed from a spam list and neither do most people. They either delete the spam or send it to Spam cop.

Shame on you :o(

Darrell
[This message has been edited by Darrell (edited 07-30-00@7:24 pm)]

[sheila]

What Darrell said.

[Paul Heckmann]

Sorry you feel that way Darrell.

Again, I was very careful to email only people that were in my industry and didn't have a board to go to. That's not spamming.

Spamming is when you send email to anybody and everybody. That is something I was very careful not to do.

[Dan Kaplan]

There is a very fine line between spam and acceptable email in some cases, and it appears this is somewhere in that gray area.[nbsp][nbsp]Some people would consider anything unsolicited to be spam, others would say it's spam if it's untargeted...[nbsp][nbsp]I tend to think the answer lies in whether or not you are providing something of value without expecting anything in return.[nbsp][nbsp]If you meet this criteria and clearly state how to go about being removed from the list (and honor requests), then it is ok in my book.

Dan

edit:[nbsp][nbsp](There has to be some way to contact people who may be interested in what you are offering.[nbsp][nbsp]I hesitate to say... use your judgement.)

[This message has been edited by Dan Kaplan (edited 07-30-00@8:24 pm)]

[Paul Heckmann]

I'm not offering them anything Dan, other than talk forums which our particular industry is strangely without. And I'm only contacting people listed by thier state's or union's commission. And anyone that asked to be removed will be removed.

[Dan Kaplan]

A forum is "something," as defined by a product or service.

Dan

[Paul Heckmann]

I found this from a mass mailer. This is what they use for thier mailers. I don't know if you'd consider mine as a commercial email. There is no charge for the site, I do have click through ads on it to hopefully take care of the monthly fees.


This message is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 1618, Title 3, section 301.[nbsp][nbsp]http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html

To stop further transmissions from this sender, reply with the word "remove" in the subject line.[nbsp]

[Dan Kaplan]

Is there a URL that works?[nbsp][nbsp];)[nbsp][nbsp] Sending people a non-functioning link of that sort would definitely make them question if it's legit...

Dan

[Paul Heckmann]

That link doesn't work, so here's the Act;

Inbox Privacy Act of 1999 - Prohibits a person from initiating the transmission of unsolicited commercial electronic mail (mail) to an individual who submits to such person a request that such mail not occur. Presumes constructive authorization of mail when the recipient secures a good or service from, or otherwise responds electronically to, an offer.

Prohibits the initiation of mail to any electronic mail address served by a domain if the domain owner has elected not to receive such mail at such domain, with exceptions. Provides requirements for domain owners electing not to receive such mail, including notification to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and the domain's customers (if such domain owner is an Internet service provider or interactive computer service provider). Requires the service provider to notify its customers of their individual authority to receive such mail, and provides for customer election to continue to receive such mail. Requires the service provider to maintain and make public a list of customers electing to receive such mail. Requires persons initiating transmission of mail to: (1) include certain identifying information; (2) agree to cease such transmission upon request; and (3) ensure the accuracy of all Internet routing information included in such transmission.

(Sec. 3) Authorizes the FTC to prescribe rules for defining and prohibiting deceptive acts or practices in connection the promotion, advertisement, offer for sale, or sale of goods or services on or by means of the Internet, with special provisions addressing such acts or practices in connection with such mail.

(Sec. 4) Authorizes the FTC to investigate and enforce regulations for violations of this Act. Requires the FCC to maintain an Internet web page concerning domain owners and customers who have made elections described above.

(Sec. 5) Authorizes a State to bring a civil action on behalf of its residents against persons transmitting such mail. Requires such State to notify the FTC of such action.

(Sec. 6) Authorizes Internet or interactive computer service providers to bring a civil action in U.S. district court for violations of this Act, with injunctive relief and damages.

(Sec. 7) Preempts State and local laws regarding the transmission or receipt of such mail.

[Paul Heckmann]

BTW - the link is

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d106:SN00759:@@@L&summ2=m&

According to this, it's still on the floor of Congress, has been read twice and referred to the Committee on Commerce.

[Justin]

The problem is this: if FutureQuest receives so much as a single complaint, you are in violation of our Terms of Service (http://www.FutureQuest.net/tos.php) agreement. If we receive a complaint stating that an email was received that was not wanted, this constitutes SPAM.

I even have to disagree with Dan on this (this part is my personal opinion) - regardless of how meaningful the email might be to me - regardless of what business I happen to be in (gee, I work from home - does that mean all the "Make money answering email" messages are legit??) - regarless of whether you are offering a free service or not - if I have to use my bandwidth to download your text that I did not request, it is SPAM.

Though the above is my personal opinion, whether or not it is allowed depends on the opinions of those whom you email. If we receive complaints, you would be subject to account termination without notice.

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Justin Nelson
FutureQuest (http://www.FutureQuest.net/index.php) Support

[sheila]

Yes, you really have to do an opt-in mailing list. Simply deciding to send mail to people who post to your forum is not enough of an indication that they would welcome your mass-mailing. You could post messages to the forum, announcing your list and inviting people to subscribe. If they choose to subscribe, it is clear that they are asking for the mailing. However, if they do not subscribe, better not send them any mail.

The point is, did they ask for the mail, or are you just assuming they want it?

[wolfstalks]

Shiela is right IMHO, that's why I like the way "FQ" has set up their mailing lists, they require someone to respond to a confirming email to get placed on a mailing list.[nbsp][nbsp]While some see this as a possible way to loose prosepctive clients, I see it as a way to be good cyber citizens, in the way we run our web sites, and also if all web sites were run this way there probably wouldn't be Senate hearings going on and laws being written that impact the way we run our web sites???

Bob
Honesty and Ethics are not easy paths but I still believe that the Good Guy/Girl will finish on top!

[Dan Kaplan]

Let me clarify my statement(s) slightly.[nbsp][nbsp]Work at home emails are clearly asking for something from you.[nbsp][nbsp]Namely, your time and quite possibly your money.[nbsp][nbsp]They are making no attempt to ascertain whether or not you are interested in their services, so it is clearly spam.

On the other hand, I run a directory of links, of which I am not aware of any other in the category close to its size.[nbsp][nbsp]When I add a site that also has a links page and contact info, I notify them that their site has been added (a benefit to them) and explain my site briefly, mentioning that it would be appreciated but not required if they linked back.[nbsp][nbsp]It's unsolicited, but I am offering them something of value with no return expectations.[nbsp][nbsp]I would be shocked if someone complained.

Furthermore, it is a one time mailing, not a list.[nbsp][nbsp]I most certainly would not maintain a non-opt in email list.

There has to be a level of judgement.[nbsp][nbsp]Is it explicitly stated that you are opting in to emails from family and friends?[nbsp][nbsp]I hate spam as much as anyone, but I think there are acceptable uses of email notification.

Dan
[This message has been edited by Dan Kaplan (edited 07-31-00@12:31 pm)]

[Paul Heckmann]

I've had my site up for a bit less than a month now, open to the public for 2 weeks and have 126 registered members on it. From what I understand, that's not bad numbers for a brand new UBB.

I got most of these people by emailing one at a time from various non-competing sites. I've got nearly 5,000 sent emails (in Outlook Express) and lists for about 5 - 10k more with only 1 person actually asking me to take them off the list.

I'd like to be able to set this up and mass email all of them. First, is this possible from Outlook Express? If not, is it possible from the CNC email program? And then, if both of these are not truly functional, what is a good mass email program to use?

I'm open to functions on it also. ie: it could-or-couldn't be a database, it could-or-couldn't simply use and store only the email address.

[sheila]

I post to Usenet newsgroups for teachers. I make it pretty clear in my posts that I'm a teacher.

I get e-mails, offering me stuff for teachers, suggesting websites for me to visit, etc...

I report them all to Spamcop.net.

[Paul Heckmann]

Interesting thoughts. Dan, I'm currently doing what you were talking about, a one time email notification. I guess I won't be able to re-mail them according to what I've read here. That's a real shame. Our industry is loosing billions of dollars a year to non-USA countries as nearly everyone else is offering tax rebates, stipends, et al. I had hoped to use this as a fulcrum to lobby the US Government as a united front.

[Paul Heckmann]

Justin, as I'm not using the Futurequest mail, but still my MSN account and name to send out the emails, BTW - They've all been sent out one at a time, is that still a problem if a complaint comes in? I haven't even set up the Futurequest email, it's all through MSN.

[Justin]

Dan - allow me to clarify a bit... If you send a one time email to one person, that is almost always perfectly fine. Where I see a problem is when you search a Yahoo category for businesses similar to yours, and you decide to email them en-masse (sp?). Then it is no different from any other spam.

I constantly receive spam, and I will admit that I never report it - mainly because it takes me long enough to delete them, and reporting it would waste even more of my time. But some people are religious about reporting spam.

Paul - please take the time to review our Terms of Service (http://www.FutureQuest.net/tos.php) one more time. It does not matter what methods you use - if you advertise your web site or an email address at your domain or anything that can link to your account with FutureQuest (and thus links back to FutureQuest and our upstream providers), it is in violation of our policy. It really doesn't matter who's mail servers you use, except that you also risk violating their TOS policy as well...

The end result is this - emailing large groups of people to solicit traffic to your site (or whatever purpose it may serve) is not the best way to go about it. Try search engine listings, or possibly purchase an advertising campaign instead. These methods are legal, and are not subject to interpretation.

Finally - what you should do if you insist on this is to ask each user upon signup to your boards whether or not they would like to receive mailings from you - possibly a checkbox on the signup form. Then of course only mail those who chose to receive such mails. Or use the earlier recommendation of placing a link to an opt-in list...

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Justin Nelson
FutureQuest (http://www.FutureQuest.net/index.php) Support

[Paul Heckmann]

Frank, but even if you contact a like minded site, isn't that technically considered spamming? They didn't initiate the converstation, so you are unsolicitated.

The problem with using search engines for my type of site, it that there are a zillion sites that use the end product, but very few for the people that produce them. I would be getting people that aren't in the business posting all over the place, and that would kill my board very quickly.

Again, I'm brand new to this, so if you see something I'm not, please let me know.

[Paul Heckmann]

BTW - Frank, just read your Home Page. If you'd like to email me (As I WILL NOT be initiating the email with you) you might find a bit of business on my boards.[nbsp]

[Jason]

Paul,

The commission for that state furnished me the emails and I sent individual emails to each person.
If the state provided you with e-mails, they should also be willing to provide you with snail-mail addresses. And you should make use of those snail-mail addresses to send letters, postcards, or other notifications about your site. You should not be using the e-mails, because I agree with most of the other people in this thread that what you are doing is SPAM and violates the Terms of Service for most providers, including FutureQuest and also MSN.

You have been lucky so far that no one has complained. That will not continue indefinitely, and eventually you *will* lose your internet access and web hosting if you continue to do what you are doing.

Jason

[frankc]

Wow--a firestorm of a topic, eh?
Frank, but even if you contact a like minded site, isn't that technically considered spamming? They didn't initiate the converstation, so you are unsolicitated.
Without more details on what 'zaktly you're doing it's hard to say how and when to contact another company.

You have to be able to see *your* company from their eyes and find true merit in working together--to both of you.

Paul, you *know* the non-competing players in your market, and perhaps developing alliances there should be part of your marketing--the ol' non-computer networking thingie.[nbsp][nbsp]A brief letter or phone call to them may be the better way to proceed.

[nbsp][nbsp]Frank
[This message has been edited by frankc (edited 07-31-00@6:12 pm)]

[Paul Heckmann]

Frank, it's a learning process. The good thing is that the sites going pretty good on it's own. Even without sending any more emails, we're moving pretty good. About 10 more registered today and 5 sites wanting to link to my site.

The type of people in my biz are not your regular surfers, so maybe that's why I've only got the one request to delete the email.

Thanks to everyone for thier input, and I'm really glad that I asked when I did. One of my posting names is "Bull in a china shop" so that's usually the way I do things.

[Paul Heckmann]

Justin, regarding your note to Dan about mailing one at a time, that's exactly what I did. The commission for that state furnished me the emails and I sent individual emails to each person. I haven't mass mailed anybody, that was the original question and I'm glad it came up before I did.

BTW - I'm using the UBB registration that automatically asks them if they do or don't want emails from the board. I'm 142 registered as of this morning with 142 saying they're fine with emails from me.

[frankc]

Paul:
Spamming is when you send email to anybody and everybody. That is something I was very careful not to do.

Again, I was very careful to email only people that were in my industry and didn't have a board to go to. That's not spamming.
This interpretation is not held by many people except spammers.

Every piece of spam I get gets reported through SpamCop--twenty this morn.[nbsp][nbsp]What you described would absolutely be reported.[nbsp][nbsp]I don't care if a person "thinks" I *should* be interested or not; they sent me unrequested email.

"Reply to unsubscribe" is a trick used by spammers to harvest and qualify good email addresses from a spam list.[nbsp][nbsp]Even though that's not *your* intent, that's how *they* work and why few will unsubscribe.

I had hoped to use this as a fulcrum to lobby the US Government as a united front. This is your passion and you can still do this--just not with spam.[nbsp][nbsp]Be proactive and make your site "findable" by concentrating on search engine submissions and cross-linking with like-minded sites.

[nbsp][nbsp]Frank
[This message has been edited by frankc (edited 07-31-00@12:30 pm)]

[thor]

Yes, it's junk mail. The criteria are fairly simple and clear most of the time. If you have an existing business relationship with those you are sending email to (eg. they are customers, have corresponded with you about a relevant issue, etc), then it isn't spam. If you have NEVER had any contact of any sort with the people, (no prior business relationship), then it's spam... it's ILLEGAL in some states, and you deserve everything that happens to you.

AND, if you are dumb enough to continue, make sure you don't send to addresses in states like Washington, where you can be taken to court regardless of where you live.

Beyond that, here's the bottom line. If sending junk email to thousands is the only way you think your site is going to succeed, you might as well give up now. Learn how to do it right and on the level.

Oh, yeah, one more thing. I've been involved in a number of spam cases (not recently), and think on this. ISP's (and presumably Futurequest can pull your account if they receive spam complaints about you. (and I know several sites that disappeared for weeks because of it).

[Dan Kaplan]

The criteria are fairly simple and clear most of the time.... If you have NEVER had any contact of any sort with the people, (no prior business relationship), then it's spam... You don't really think it's that clear cut, do you?[nbsp][nbsp]Could we extrapolate and say I am a internet nomad, looking for a quality host.[nbsp][nbsp]I have never contacted FQ previously, but I am interested in their services.[nbsp][nbsp]I fire off an email asking specific questions.[nbsp][nbsp]Oops, I have never had any contact of any sort with them before.[nbsp][nbsp]Is that spam?[nbsp][nbsp]It certainly wasn't solicited.[nbsp][nbsp]Sure, they made their email address available.[nbsp][nbsp]What if I found it on a page that didn't specifically say, "contact us for more information?" How is that different from someone making their email address available in a forum?

I realize you're not talking about a customer contacting a business, but the criteria for "spam" remain the same.[nbsp][nbsp]The more I read about people's reaction to spam, the more I'm starting to think that the spam recipients are as much a part of the problem as the senders.[nbsp][nbsp]Please don't ask me to explain that, because it sounds absolutely ludicrous.[nbsp][nbsp]Just try to think through all aspects of the situation before jumping down someone's throat for what may or may not have been an honest mistake or even spam at all.

Dan

[Justin]

Dan - I have to disagree to an extent. You are contacting the business, wishing to buy what they are selling. Much like walking into a store and asking questions.

But you wouldn't expect the business to send you email. It's completely different...

I will agree 100% that most end users are part of the problem. I don't believe I have personally ever reported a piece of spam. It takes up too much time. Deleting it is fast enough. While I do hate waking up every day to GET VIAGRA ONLINE!!! or better yet MAKE $40,000/WEEK FROM HOME!!!, I don't mind when I get an email from someone who may have run accross my site and wants to sell me something... such a grey area...

The main things I have a problem with are:

- Obfuscated URLs - for example, http://MakeMoney:AOL.Com@3505591286/ (go ahead and click it :)
- Invalid Reply address, or invalid "removal" URL - or worse, a phone # to call to be removed...
- Trying to sell me something I am completely not interested in, and have never shown any reason to want to receive such an offer (porn, viagra, things like that) - which, by the way, is very ineffective marketing anyway (completely non-targeted)...

I don't think there will ever be defined standards... I generally don't send mass emails unless everyone chose to receive them (eg, signed up)... I could go on all day but I won't - if I do, it solves nothing while allowing the spammers to take that much more of my valuable time away :P

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Justin Nelson
FutureQuest (http://www.FutureQuest.net/index.php) Support

[Dan Kaplan]

Justin,

I think we're saying the same thing.[nbsp][nbsp]My example wasn't intended to say that contacting a business is spam, just that there is too much grey area to define what is or is not spam in all cases based on such narrow definitions.[nbsp][nbsp]That sort of thinking generally leads to censorship, which I doubt anyone here is in favor of.[nbsp][nbsp]Hmm, there's some grey area to ponder, censorship vs. consumer privacy...

Besides, I fully expect businesses to contact me via phone or mail.[nbsp][nbsp]Doesn't mean I like it or ever give them my business (I usually go out of my way to not give them my business as a result).[nbsp][nbsp]Just part of the game.[nbsp][nbsp]And part of my life-long mission to get people to not take everything so dang seriously.[nbsp][nbsp];)

Dmoralizer

[Justin]

I agree on the censorship vs privacy issue. That's part of why I personally don't report spam that I receive in my personal box (unless we happen to host the spammer - I have to note that the way I handle my personal email box is very different from FutureQuest's policy on spam. I fully support our anti-spam policies; I simply don't bother with other people's problems with my personal email).

At any rate, I've not minded when someone would contact me about a possible business deal, even if it's to sell something - as long as they are contacting *me* and not a million email addresses they purchased... And these days it gets harder and harder to tell, as some Spam looks personalized...

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Justin Nelson
FutureQuest (http://www.FutureQuest.net/index.php) Support