awkward message board

[Binky]

It could be that it'll take some getting used to but I'm finding this message board too difficult to navigate. I'm trying to get as much info as possible, being new at most of this, and I keep getting lost and/or confused as to where I should be looking for answers to my questions, and going back and forth a lot.

Would it be possible (or desirable) to have something more like a newsgroup, or number of newsgroups, accessible with an offline newsreader like Agent so that one could download all messages that look interesting for leisurely offline perusal?

[Deb]

We do plan on setting up a mailing list to accomplish what you are asking for....

This will happen after our current upgrades and switch to UUnet is completed. It seems many would like such a feature...

Deb

[meikel]

Hi,

sorry to hear that there are people finding the forums too hard. But I must admit that it takes some time to get used to it.

You can try to look at web-download and offline-browsing software. Nearly all shareware sites have these programs on stock.
I know one is called WebZip and that seems to be very good.
This way you could just download the whole forum in one run and browse it later.

Greetings from someone being in very good mood today
[nbsp][nbsp]Meikel Weber
www.meikel.com (http://www.meikel.com)

[Justin]

Only problem with that idea is that last time I checked the forums were taking over 10 megs (whatever happened to that link, anyway?). Unless there's a way to specify last modified dates (which I don't think you can), that would take a while.

Justin

[zeegraf]

It could be that it'll take some getting used to but I'm finding this message board too difficult to navigate. I'm trying to get as much info as possible, being new at most of this, and I keep getting lost and/or confused as to where I should be looking for answers to my questions, and going back and forth a lot.

Would it be possible (or desirable) to have something more like a newsgroup, or number
of newsgroups, accessible with an offline newsreader like Agent so that one could
download all messages that look interesting for leisurely offline perusal?

A newsgroup would be a good idea IMHO. Mailing lists are good, but a newsgroup could expose FQuest to even more potential customers. There wouldn't even be a need to start a new group -- there's plenty of alt.* newsgroups dealing with webmaster-related subjects, and not all of them see a lof of traffic.


------------------
Don Z.
www.zeegraf.com (http://www.zeegraf.com)

"To poldly mow air moebius
gumby four" --Kirk on Novacaine

[flowersource]

I had the same experience as you when I first started using the UBB...
I found it difficult to navigate. Eventually I got used to it (mostly by navigating with the little directory structure up in the right, top of the page and occasionally using the keyword search)

I got so comfortable with the UBB that I tried the freeware version on my web site, then 'leased' the real thing.
I have found that my visitors obviously do not find it 'user friendly'...they are not posting at all, compared to 2-3 a day when I used a mail form for their input.
I may have to go back to the old mail form or...maybe both.
You'll get used to it, hang in there.
Mike

[Armand]

I have to chime in here... I found the UBB setup easy to use instantly. But have to say that when I switched from a remoted host board to the UBB on my site my visitors/regulars were quick to register but not to use. It's been about a month now. And now use is back to normal (of course I am having a heck of a time to get them to use all of the forums since they are all stick to just one forum).

Takes a bit of time, but it's more than worth it...especially these forums http://www.arcanumcafe.com/images/smokey.gif

------------------
Armand (aka Joe)
joe@arcanumcafe.com
www.arcanumcafe.com (http://www.arcanumcafe.com)

[Binky]

It's just my own preference but I'd find local newsgroups much more efficient than a mailing list. Also, Usenet's fine for more general discussion but local newsgroups would be better for discussions specific to FutureQuest.

I'm not surprised that others using this type of message board are not getting posts. I've been using the internet, and bulletin boards before that, for over ten years but this board had me stumped for some time. I found it easier to email Support with questions which is a waste of Deb and Andrew's precious time, IMO.

A good example is Opera. Using Agent (or any newsreader) I can access Opera newsgroups, which aren't distributed on the net, on their server (opera.nta.no). I download all the message headers and then, when I've got a question I scan the headers and download the relevant messages.

[meikel]

Hi again,

my thoughts....
I don't like mailing lists much, but a newsgroup would be fine. It should be hosted on FQ server, because the standard usenet is far too slow (compared to other methods of communication).

The main problem I see is that there might be the builtup of two communities. I like to have *one* place to find everything. These forums have proven quite useful so far. Much better than newsgroups. I always have problems searching newsgroups for specific keywords. Dejanews is of no help in locally hosted newsgroups.

Maybe it would be a good idea to work on the usability of this forum. A searchbox on every page would boost productivity (no need to click on search). Just a small textbox with a search button and here we go.
I always have to scroll around to find the link to "search" and then go there (web browsers need time) and then search.

I hate the idea of getting many different areas to look at:
* this forum
* a newsgroup
* mailing list

It's so easy that some important info or tip gets to the mailing list but never shows up in the forum. So I would miss it easily.
I don't know if its planned to give mailing list capabilities to UBB so that any new post would result in an email to all mailing list users and any reply to this (or new mail to the list) would result in a new post to UBB (total mirroring).

A mailing list has the following problem(s):
* It is totally unstructured. With new clients it is at least possible to sort by subject and get a threaded view even in email folders, but there is no kind of different forums or so. That would make around 10 mailing lists to get that set up.
* It is hard to search. I still don't like the search capabilities of email clients. It's too slow compared to other ways of searching.

Newsgroups have the following problem (IMHO)
I find them hard to navigate.
I have to click every single message in a thread to read everything. this web-board with simple scroll down is much easier. It also takes a good deal of time to download an article (depending on the net connection).
I never found an easy way for offline reading. I either have to download everything (heck that can be much) or I have to set a filter (that usually exactly misses what I want to read http://www.aota.net/ubb/frown.gif )

This forum has some drawbacks, too:
* Threading is not so easy. Everything is just added at the end. Sometimes this makes it a bit hard to follow the discussion going on. On the other hand I like the UBB design a lot over many threaded boards that require me to click every ****ed answer so that I need hours to read a longer discussion.
* The major advantage for this forum is that I have access to it from everywhere. At the moment, I'm at work behind a firewall that just allowes web-access. So newsgroups and private email (stored at home on my harddisk) are be inaccessible here. These forums are perfectly accessible (or I couldn't post this http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif )
* And I like the read-unread lightbulbs. These drive me easily to the new and updated stuff.

I'm sure that most of my negative opinions to mailing lists or usenet come, because I'm not really using these services.

What are your opinions on the different ways to drive a community (or better this community)?

Greetings from Bonn, Germany
[nbsp][nbsp]Meikel Weber
www.meikel.com (http://www.meikel.com)

[Terra]

I'll toss my 2 cents on this...

Being a veteran of many different styles of message boards, from flat - threaded - linear... I find linear to suit my tastes the best, especially for technically related issues... Prime example is down in the Server News forums... I like to have all information available to me on 1 scroll... Pressing 'ctrl-f' is trivial to seek out keywords...

Threaded discussion boards, drive me nuts (for reasons that Meikel states)... Click on every friggin message to find the one you want...

As far as newsgroups, I doubt that will happen anytime soon... Deb and I already have enough programs open in a day, tossing a newsreader on top of that to handle customer questions would push things over the top... We handle around 150 - 300 EMails a day, along with these Forums... Both Deb and I have agreed that the layout and delivery of content has suited our underlying design goals... We do on occasion close threads that have gotten too long, and start another one...

I would prefer better searching on these forums, full regex's and/or booleon capability...

The best thing about these boards is that they maintain a high Signal/Noise ratio...

I may toss the UBB all together and start working on a modified Phorum www.phorum.org (http://www.phorum.org) for the next generation of FQuest/AOTA message boards...

I have also been watching discuss run, and they are *HIGH* load scripts, many times worse than the UBB's... That's why I'm looking at Phorum for FQuest certified pre-installed message forums... One click and it's all setup... http://www.aota.net/ubb/wink.gif

Greetings from someone driving the 3rd Generation
Terra
FutureQuest

[meikel]

Are they planning to make a flat version? What I saw was easy to navigate but still lotsa clicks to read everything.

Meikel

[Terra]

I will probably write in my own routines that will allow you to switch between threaded and linear...

Since the messages are stored in a MySQL database, it shouldn't be to difficult... (Famous last words)

The biggest problem will be keeping my code merged with their updates... That's why I almost never touch the UBB, because of Ted's sloppy coding techniques and *frequent* updates...

Greetings from someone that has hacked one too many message forums
Terra
sysAdmin
FutureQuest

[Jacob Stetser]

Well, Andrew, why not submit your code changes (threaded v. flat) to them for inclusion in the real Phorum? http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif That would improve Phorum and make less work for you re-inserting in every new update..

Plus maybe you could get mention on the Phorum page ("Thanks to Andrew and FutureQuest for the [insert code description here] code. BTW, FQ supports both PHP and MySQL, so they're a great host for Phorum!")

http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

[Justin]

I like the PHP idea - I checked out Phorum, I like the name, but the design needs a little work. Not much, but making it similar to the UBB would be nice, maybe with a 10 post limit and a "<< Last 10 | Next 10>>" link at the bottom, like a search engine would make things easier.

I think I'm going to download Phorum when I get time and play around - but having no SQL access, I will have to modify it (locally) to use a text based scheme - I think I can make that more efficient than UBB, with everything being HTML / PHP, only rebuilt when something changes. Too much is done dynamically with the UBB.

I hate newsgroups, and Email lists are too much hassel. I liked this forum the first time here. I just kinda clicked my way around till I figured it out. Visitors of my site are getting used to it, too, and the more people post, the less shy new users get.

I think I posted here on my first visit, after spending a couple of hours getting to know everyone reading old posts. But that's me - I know everyone has different ideas.

The main thing going for the UBB is it's popularity. I think it's just the design that makes it so popular, because it is a resource hog, there's far too much redundant Perl and HTML in it, and the updates are more frequent than anything MS puts out - with about the same ratio of new bugs per bug fix.

But people still like the darn thing. I'll probably never upgrade mine, other than adding features myself when they do, because I don't remember half of what I changed in it. Or I'll write my own, just for fun http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

I agree with Miekel about how easy it would be for Newsgroup fans, UBB fans, and Mialing list fans to ban togetheras separate communities. I don't like that - you guys would be either answering the same questions three times each, or constantly refering people to this area or that area.

You can't please all of the people all of the time - what's here now is what has made me love FQ, and I'm not the only one, so obviously it's not that bad. I agree that more FQ'ers should stop by, but some people just don't have the time, or are anti-social http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif


------------------
Justin Nelson, SFE Software
www.vdj.net (http://www.vdj.net)
The individual formerly known as SFE Inc.

[Mandi]

I use UBB on my site, but I don't know enough programming to just hack it to pieces. With luck and patience from my users, I can add smiley hacks, and that's about it. (Well, HTML hacks, of course.) I keep a running journal of what I "did" to the program; helps when I upgrade. Of course, mine is a short list, hehe! I can see where it would get complex if I actually knew what I was doing, and tweaked it on a more regular basis.

Hear, hear, about all those upgrades and bugs, ick... but we love the end result - a huge, huge improvement (for my user group) over non moderated forums, old bulletin board style. Instead of putting out fires all day long, we actually have time for site development and *egads* posting myself once in awhile. Stray abusive posters are easily identified and quickly dealt with. The old style bulletin boards were an enormous drain on our most precious resource - time (mine, and my volunteers.) Part of my insistance that we stick to moderated forums is that my user group - unlike most in cyberspace - actually know each other in real life too, and we need each other's support too much to allow one or two users with their noses out of joint, to send the whole thing up in flames (pun intended.) For our purposes, for now, it works . . . although I would love to see a version that wasn't quite such a resource hog too.

[Terra]

Well, Andrew, why not submit your code changes (threaded v. flat) to them for inclusion in the real Phorum?

Couple of reasons:

1) I would like to provide something unique that FQuest can deliver to present/future site owners.

2) If I were to release my updates, then I would be responsible for maintaning them, and their schedule would not always coincide with mine creating a conflict of interest and time resources...

FQuest highly supports open source software, but we also recognize the sacrifices that people must make to further it's advocation... Perhaps later, I will become more involved in the effort by submitting code, but right now my focus is on building the core infrastructure of FutureQuest.net...

--
Terra
--We will now resume our regularly scheduled program already in progress--
FutureQuest.net

[Binky]

Not surprisingly, having spent more time in these forums, I'm finding this much more comfortable. I'm not sure I wouldn't still prefer a set of newsgroups but once I realized I could bookmark individual threads this made staying on top of things a LOT easier.
http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

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[meikel]

... I'm finding this much more comfortable.

Welcome

Greetings from Bonn, Germany
[nbsp][nbsp]Meikel Weber
www.meikel.com (http://www.meikel.com)

[Melprophet]

It's funny how we all have different preferences, and I guess it has to do with what we're used to using. For me, I find the UBB very easy to use, and something like Phorum, which I used briefly as a moderator for a friends site to be cumbersome. My site visitors, after moving my board from Delphi to a UBB are thrilled with the UBB thus far...Go figure.

Mel

[hearts]

just a brief stop here on the net, and in my simple opinion, i find this place organized, and very simple and friendly to use.

With anything you are not used to, ya gotta poke around a bit, make yourself aquainted, and adjust.

I have seen some others that are quite annoying. And don't put me on a mailing list, as i will only delete any unsolicited mail without reading it.

My heart says, FQ has a good thing going here, they got enough irons in the fire right now, please don't ask them to refigure the community... just yet

signing off.............

[hearts]

oh yeah.. that little search link.. it does wonders!

[Michael G]

All I have to say is that I love the UBB and this forum. As a matter of fact, it's the presence of this beautiful support forum that's made me decide to sign up with FutureQuest! I much prefer the UBB over usenet or mailing lists. This allows you to format text and search (unlike in newsgroups) and you can pick and choose which messages to read, rather than having them flood into your mail box.

FutureQuest, these forums are great. Keep up the great work. Can't wait to move my site to your servers!

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Michael L Gerenser
Web designer
http://www.gerenser.com