Question for Terra (and anyone else who wants to answer)

[TVB]

Hi Terra,

How many hours of sleep do you require everyday? I ask because it seems like you are up and working ALOT--at many different dayparts.

Then again, it probably seems like I am as well but I still do need at least 6 hours (required) and sometimes 8 or 9 (preferred). Thankfully, my personal and work life allows it. I find I do my best work in the middle of the night.

Betsy

[Wassercrats]

Then again, it probably seems like I am as well but I still do need at least 6 hours (required) and sometimes 8 or 9 (preferred).Best to look at that as needing 9. I went through practically my entire childhood being exhausted when I woke up for school. I know that must have messed me up permanently somehow. I still hate school just from thinking about those days. Hard to say what I need, but I usually tell people 9. Some think that's too much, but I don't care. Make sure you get some exercise during the day and you'll sleep better, if you have a sleep problem.

[Terra]

How many hours of sleep do you require
I'm content with anywhere from 4 to 6 hours every 18 to 28 hour cycle...

everyday?
That is very subjective, as I don't follow what everyone would consider to be a 'normal' day... As I thumb through my dictionary, the place where the word 'normalcy' exists seems to be starred out... :P

I usually walk the clock, as there are many times that I need to be up during normal business hours to work with vendors and such... Other times I need to rotate my hours to do late night maintenance... Sadly there is no middle of the road to cover both time ranges consistently... In a nutshell, the Internet never sleeps and there is *always* something to work on...

Overall, my time is the epitome of 'flex' time and is highly volatile... My ability to go long periods of time is natural to me and has been that way for as long as I can remember...

The other issue is that early on (I think I was 9) my mind decided that life was too short to sleep 33% of it away, so over time it (consciously) reconditioned itself to depend less and less on sleeping (filing the daily stuff away) and converted that to a conscious background task... Another perk of the change is that ~80% of all my dreams are lucid dreams, especially the flying or racing ones, which makes sleeping worthwhile... :)

Well, I guess we can file this under FMTEYEWTK... ;)

--
Terra
--lack of sleep does hit me from time to time and I become terribly slap happy--
FutureQuest

[TVB]

Thanks Terra. That was quite insightful. Insightful is only temporary description of my new knowledge of Terraquirks until I figure out what FMTEYEWTK stands for.

Make sure you get some exercise during the day and you'll sleep better, if you have a sleep problem.

The brown dogs and numerous steps around my place makes sure of it although I can no longer do the more vigorous exercise I preferred for the first part of adult life (mountain biking and things like snow skiing) due to a serious accident several years ago. Anything that requires upper body/shoulder strength or has a high fall risk is out of the question because I'm not spending another 8 months with everything above my waist in a body brace. The warnings for what could happen with traumatic fall were ominous; I don't have a lot of interest in finding if they are true or not. Digging in soft dirt a small hand tool is the extent of my exertion in that area. There are some things I used to enjoy doing that I miss immensely.

[CDarklock]

Thanks Terra. That was quite insightful. Insightful is only temporary description of my new knowledge of Terraquirks until I figure out what FMTEYEWTK stands for.

Far More Than Even You Ever Wanted To Know.

This is actually a common expression in some circles, right up there with TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch).

My sleep schedule is pretty freaky, too, similar to Terra's. I'm up at around 4:30 every morning, and most nights I get to bed between 11 and midnight. I make up for the missing time with the occasional nap, and I sleep late (sometimes till seven!) on weekends.

Sleep is strange, though. Everyone has slightly different definitions of "enough", but enough is enough and more doesn't make anything better; once you know how much sleep you really do need, anything else tends to be counterproductive.

[Andilinks]

I am also in the 4-6 hour club and when not tied to any schedule will gravitate to a ~30 hour day which recycles an entire day every four--and no two weeks are the same. Unfortunately I cannot sustain it long enough to develop an alternate calendar.
Appointments and the schedules of other "normal" human beings just make it all chaotic...

also FMTEYEWTK

Andi

[jimbo]

Sleep is a nuisance.

[PaulKroll]

The other issue is that early on (I think I was 9) my mind decided that life was too short to sleep 33% of it away, so over time it (consciously) reconditioned itself to depend less and less on sleeping
I call BS.

Yes, people require different amounts of sleep, and yes, many people (most?) can "get by" with less than the requisite 7.5-8.5 a night. But there's considerable research that folks who do NOT get at least 7.5 hours a night are not performing as their peak or anywhere near it. And of course, humans being what they are, YOUR perception of your performance is almost certainly horribly off. It's like a drunk thinking they drive better under the influence: they're in no position to judge.

Sleep, Terra. Go To Freaking SLEEP. :)

[Syneryder]

I'd be interested to see quantified results too, since some people who sleep only a few hours then have days where they crash for a long time. A friend of mine only sleeps around 5 or 6 hours a night, but then will crash for about 12 hours on the weekend.

I actually recorded my hours of sleep for a whole year... I can't find the spreadsheet right now, but my average was about 8 hours 15 minutes. I round that down to 8 hours, because I imagine I take 7 minutes to fall asleep (and I'm often slow waking up).

The other question I'd like to ask Terra is - can anyone act as substitute? Do you sleep the short hours and work the long hours because you enjoy it and love it, or is it because no one can completely substitute for Terra yet? [I realize that question might be commercially sensitive, so feel free not to answer.]

[Terra]

I call BS.
LOL, that is certainly your perogative...

I am certainly not on a mission of deluding myself, but was rather stating a conscious choice I made and the will to make changes and adjustments to my routine...

Unfortunately, I still haven't figured out how to walk on broken glass, but the opportunity does present itself from time to time... :whistle:

considerable research that folks
There is also considerable research that everyone is unique (Just like everybody else - Hi Jimbo) and that everyone has some form of variance from others... ;)

Overall, it is simple, I do not sleep with any alarm clocks or anyone waking me up... Whenever my eyes open, is when they open, and I would say that I am naturally back awake in 4 to 6 hours pretty much 95% of the time (unless I'm awoken by some type of server alert)... Anything over 8 hours, and I'm a zombie until my waking self re-aligns...

--
Terra
--actually, if you really must know, I cloned myself 2 times, with each taking an 8 hour shift--
FutureQuest

[Terra]

Do you sleep the short hours and work the long hours because you enjoy it and love it
Yes, definitely...

, or is it because no one can completely substitute for Terra yet?
Every member of the FutureQuest Team passes the bus test... That is a corporate necessity for a business like ours...

--
Terra
--sysAdmins are a dime a dozen nowadays and I'm easily replaceable--
FutureQuest

[CDarklock]

But there's considerable research that folks who do NOT get at least 7.5 hours a night are not performing as their peak or anywhere near it.

The *average* human being does indeed need an *average* of eight to nine hours of sleep a night. However, some people need more -- my wife simply can't get by on less than ten, and is much happier with fourteen -- and some people need far less. It's a very complex question related to your personal biochemistry, along with any supplements you may take and the kind of nutrition you're getting, contrasted with your daily activity.

There's a simple rule I follow: eat when you're hungry, drink when you're thirsty, sleep when you're tired. That seems to work for pretty much everybody.

Terra's clock-walking sounds like how I worked ten or twelve years ago. I was on what amounted to a thirty-hour clock; I'd be up for about 25 hours, sleep for five, and repeat. If I could still successfully interact with the real world on a schedule like that, I'd still be doing it, but I don't have that luxury anymore... I have to work with *normal* people. (shudder)

[Andilinks]

The schedule that I described includes 40 min. (often more) of aerobic (sweaty) exercise daily and rigorous resistance training which takes a long time because I go for reps not weight.

Without the exercise it changes, without interruptions from outside schedules it settles into a routine.

I will sleep longer than six hours at a stretch only if I have accrued a deficit, so it is usually 4-5 hours.

I wish I could say my diet is good, but one reason I exercise this much is so I can eat more with impunity. :)

Andi

[TVB]

My last post here last night (this morning?) was around 5am. I've been up for about 20 minutes or just long enough to boil a pot of water and let my tea (somewhat low caffeinated since it is white tea) steep for a few minutes, probably longer than I should be it has low tannen levels.

I saw a study last week or at least read something about it that indicated really creative people are apt to want/need more sleep. I know I do. If I am writing and jamming on my book, I'm sleeping quite a bit at odd hours and on a weird schedule. Actually those days I get almost all my sleep during the day when there is a good deal of ambient noise in the background and write almost exclusively during the nighttime hours. I'll need to remember that for the liner notes: "written in the dark".

Likewise, if I am working on one of our websites, I am doing it during the day and for really long periods if I get hung up on something. For instance, when the switch to mambo began in the background, I was moving a lot of content and it became a rote experience, thereby causing me to develop an almost OCD-like behavior.

Many things changed in my life along with my sleeping pattern the day I bought my current bed, particularly the current linens. It's simply too comfy some mornings to extricate myself from. It's those times that I really appreciate having my laptop using a wifi connection.

Betsy

[Dunx]

I used to be able to function on six hours of sleep a night during the week and then crash on the weekends, but I can't do that any more. I do best if I get eight hours sleep, less than that and I do not function well.

Part of this is that I've had an ulcer buggering up my sleep patterns for most of the last ten years, one way or another. I finally went to the doctor and had this diagnosed at the end of January because I spent most of January asleep - I was never rested, no matter how much sleep I got. The sleep issues weren't the only ulcerous symptom, but it was the one I was taking notice of because I was ceasing to function in any meaningful way.

But I'm going to stick to eight hours as my answer, because it's been reality for a long time now.

[Deb]

I'm still trying to figure out the answer to this question....

Years ago I was clinically diagnosed as an insomniac ... it got so bad for a while there that I was hospitalized and heavily drugged as they tried to force my body to rest and of course w/o sleep all kinds of BadThings^TM can happen. After finally getting some sleep I began to sleep too much which also has bad effects.... FINALLY it started to fall into a routine similar to what the other "clockwalkers" have described. Longish periods without sleep and then a good solid rest only to start over again seeing the days as about 30 hours long. This worked great for me and was accomplished w/o drugs or docs or anything of that nature so I was pretty happy with it :)

When FutureQuest began the long hours became longer as we worked aggressively to ensure everything started up correctly. Terra and I both worked insane amounts of hours and pushed ourselves beyond what we probably should have (as most new business owners with a goal will do). As the team grew and the company became more established I was pleased to see that I had no problem getting more sleep.

Terra is awake a LOT more than me now. I can't keep up with him ... not at all.. I'm fine with that though because first hand experience has shown me how bad it can be to stay awake too long. I, like Terra, have the privilege to sleep without the use of an alarm clock (just a pager/beeper these days to give an intermission to the dreams lol). Terra and I do keep an eye on each other though. If I start to notice his mood changing for the worse or his words becoming slurred then I'll push him to bed... fortunately that's not required too often since he does seem to obey his body's demands more oft than not. Likewise, if he notices that I'm lacking in the sleep area he'll start to coral the kids/pets etc and ensure I have some solid uninterrupted quiet time for sleep.

What's happening around me and emotions seem to play a large part in how much I need to sleep. If there's a great deal of stress I'm awake more....and when it settles I crash for a much longer period of time. If things are "normal" then I tend to do well with 4 to 5 hours of sleep and nap when possible in front of the tv... (I've seen the beginning of a LOT of movies...but the rest is a Hitchcock Mystery lol)

I think it's also important to note that rest, though not counted as sleep, plays a large role in the body's requirements. Terra may be 'awake' for 48 hours straight but he'll "rest" a for a good chunk of the time watching a movie, playing a video game, or tinkering with something outside of work etc... Likewise for me whether it be the tv or the fishtanks or sitting by the pond observing the turtles or anything of that nature. When you work as many days in a row as we do, hours "away" can feel like a good night's rest that sets us up to return to doing what we enjoy.... work ;)

Deb
- Can't count the number of times we've asked the question "When did you last sleep?"

[Bruce]

How many hours of sleep do you require everyday?When my sleep isn't interrupted, I will generally wake up 7 1/2 to 8 hours after I go to bed, with no alarm. This has annoyed my wife to no end ("Why can't you just sleep in?!?"). She generally needs 9-10 hours, which of course has annoyed me too ("Why can't you just get up?")

-- "Ain't nobody's happy when momma's not happy!" :P ---

[Andilinks]

...only to start over again seeing the days as about 30 hours long. This has long been a problem for me. I always want to stay up later than I did the night before until I circle the clock. This must be a very strange internal clock anomaly. I work best when I can stay up until I'm tired and then just awaken naturally--no clock, no schedule, no reference to the position of the sun, moon, or heavenly bodies.

I will be doing more gardening, dirt and hydroponic, a great respite from a computer screen. Maybe this will fix my clock. I just planted tomatoes in dirt, next will be hydroponics.


Andi

[Wassercrats]

I always want to stay up later than I did the night before until I circle the clock. This must be a very strange internal clock anomalyPeople are built for a longer day. There's talk and links about it at http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=89329&cid=7723956

There was a recent controversial study about people who sleep less (like about 6 hours) being healthier or something than those who sleep longer.

[Randall]

See, if I didn't have to work today I could have stayed up late and followed this thread from the beginning instead of coming into it 18 hours late. :hrmm:

I've always found it waaaay easier to stay up late than to get up early, so I don't feel guilty about sleeping in. I figure I pack in as many waking hours as the next guy -- I just can't stick to a 24-hour clock.

I'm happiest when I don't have to be up at the same time every weekday, which is why I'm not hurrying to fill in my Mondays with another regularly scheduled work day. Ideally I'd live Terra's alarm-free existence, but I'd always sleep at least 8 hours.

Once at college I spent an entire January sleeping 12 hours and being up 16 hours, cycling through the clock every six days like ... uh, clockwork. (Sorry about that.)

Nowadays, when left to my own devices I'm more likely to sleep 8 hours and maintain a 24-hour day, but every few days my internal clock slips its gears and I find myself staying up 4-6 hours longer. Possibly because in these free periods I'm spending more time doing stuff I want to do and get caught up in it. For the past few years it's been mostly limited to weekends, which doesn't make that first day back at work any easier.

For reasons I won't go into right now I've been having trouble sleeping (getting to or staying that way), but a new prescription I got today should put the kibosh on that. I'm planning to pop that pill at 10 pm, so this is probably my last post for tonight.

I spent 19 hours asleep on Saturday, but that was a combination of lost sleep during the week and a different new medication that was just starting to kick in. I'm hoping to get back to some semblance of normality soon.

Randall :sleep:

[Wassercrats]

My grandfather had a story about sleeping for 24 hours after a hard day's (or two) work. My family doubted the story, but since then I've slept for about 24 hours almost straight twice.

[Randall]

My personal record is 22 hours straight -- no pharmaceutical assistance required.

Can't recall what made me that tired, but the sleep was memorable. :yeah:

Randall

[TVB]

I just planted tomatoes in dirt

Did you dive for buckets or just go with plain old pots or maybe, ask them if they had any that hadn't gone to the "shed" yet?

I only set the alarm if I need to get up. Otherwise, I let my body tell me what I need and sleep when I am tired and don't when I am not.

I did take what I hoped was going to be a short nap this afternoon and found myself in an odd state of confusion upon finally awaking a hour or so later. I don't think that was due to a sleep thing however; I was having one of those dreamlike nightmares where you are kind of awake, kind of not awake and still in the dream...like one side of the body still in sleep/dream/nightmare, and the other side is not in the REM stage but begging the dreamlike state to leave. I tried really hard to wake from it but my body felt like it was paralyzed and I couldn't connect the two sides. It's been a very long time since I had that happen until it did tonight and it has me weirded out alot as it was quite vivid. I'm sure I was talking through the whole thing too but there are no witnesses, except for my pets and they aren't sharing a thing.

I've gone about 36 hours without sleep in the past. I'm not sure how productive I was afterwards, but I know I do about 12 hours when I finally find the bed.

[Wassercrats]

I tried really hard to wake from it but my body felt like it was paralyzedThere's a thing where you've just woken up but you still can't move. Forgot what it's called, but it never happened to me. I don't know what yours was. Probably more like a lucid dream. I've had semi-lucid dreams in which I wasn't sure if I was awake and kept trying to wake myself up, but they weren't nightmares. Maybe you're too stressed. Play with your dog or something.

[TVB]

Play with your dog or something Yeah. The brown dog would like that. Heck, I think brown dog may want a vacation as much as I do.

I started to write a long thing about my dream/nightmare and ended up erasing it. Maybe I just need to get away from the Hudson River for a while.

[Wassercrats]

His name is "The brown dog"?

I've had some dreams that didn't bother me much and I didn't consider them nightmares, but if I described them they would definitely sound like nightmares. You have to go by how much it bothered you in the dream. It sounds like it did bother you though.Dreams and the other questions, I think I'll wait on answering those for the time being due to other reasons I am still trying to figure out.There's a guy who wrote a book on how dreams are determined in large part by random firings in the brain, and I tend to believe him. I wouldn't get too caught up in looking for the meaning. It could simply be caused by stress, something you once read, and randomness, with a little real life thrown in that you don't even need to deal with.

[esc]

Does anybody know about sleeping habits beyond the polar circles? Are there any historical documents from times when watches were not as common as now? Googling around I learned that the first permanent settlement beyond the polar circle was the Siberian fortress Shigansk (http://www.shigansk.de/sibmap2.gif)*) founded in 1632.

Erich
*) The map is linked from a German site (http://www.shigansk.de) which sells Siberian cats :kewl:

[Andilinks]

Did you dive for buckets or just go with plain old potsThe previous occupant of this house built a box from 2x4's on the desert soil and filled it with darker dirt so I planted them in there after turning the soil.

I haven't checked the Burger King yet but if I come up empty there I'll go down the street to Lowe's where they sell clean 5 gal. paint pails. Having Hydroponic and dirt tomatoes side-by side will be a fine experiment, but there doesn't seem to be any large hydroponic stores around here. I may have to order things online or drive to Texas...

I almost never awaken until I have slept my full 4-6, and almost never go back to sleep once awake. I do dream vividly but only rarely remember my dreams. I once tried self-hypnosis and journaling to remember dreams and have lucid dreams and only had partial success. Also used a weird biofeedback device for alpha-state, but never accomplished much with that. The dream journal was the best part. I don't think anyone but the dreamer can interpret the meaning of a dream (if any). There may be clues to real-life mysteries in dreams but I've never found any that were of any value to me other than as interesting inward exploration. No grand epiphanies...

I usually awaken with a start but then take great pleasure in stretching or lying still for 15-20 minutes more before getting out of bed.

...sleeping habits beyond the polar circles? I've heard that in Iceland drinking is very popular during the extremes of the dark/light cycle and that widespread drunkeness is considered a national problem there, though they do seem to be an industrious people in spite of that.

Andi

[TVB]

His name is "The brown dog"?

Nah. I just call her the brown dog because she is brown. You know how people always ask things of pet owners like, "What kind of dog is she?" expecting some silly breed or something? Well, I tell people she is a purebred brown dog.

Her name is really TroubleDog.

Betsy

[Randall]

Her name is really TroubleDog. That's only midly less odd than the time you called her "Troubs (http://www.aota.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=131173#post131173)." I tried really hard to wake from it but my body felt like it was paralyzed and I couldn't connect the two sides. I think I had something like that a couple of years ago. My recollections were already pretty hazy a few minutes after it ended, but I have the sense that I wasn't so much paralyzed as very, very confused. Like something about my body was massively wrong in a way I couldn't articulate. After a few minutes of this I actually screamed and then shook out of it. Took another hour to calm down again -- I've never been through anything that disturbing asleep, awake or in between.

The dreams I remember generally aren't very vivid, and they almost never involve real life situations. So I don't put any stock in what they're supposed to "mean." Too Freudian for me.

One of my few really memorable (in a long-term sense) dreams involved a theater production on board an honest-to-God sailing ship in a tropical lagoon. (Could've been the Pirates of Penzance, but I've never seen that show so I wouldn't know.) I give that one points for originality -- I don't think I'd ever think up something like that when I was awake, and it actually sounds fun.

Most of my dreams aren't very fun at all. Even if they don't quite qualify as nightmares, they tend to be unsettling at best.

Randall

[Wassercrats]

Most of my dreams aren't very fun at all.Maybe you tend to remember the bad ones. How often do you remember having a not very fun dream?

[Wassercrats]

I've diagnosed TVB and Randall with hallucinatory (hypnagogic) sleep paralysis (HSP). See http://www.nightterrors.org/paralysis.html

I'm not sure about the bottom of the page where it says "HSPs are usually a vision of a small creature that sits on the victims chest. The creature then either compresses the chest or attempts to strangulate the victim. Almost all attacks have been reported by people sleeping on their backs" but as a precaution, I'd sleep on my stomach.

[Andilinks]

FMTEYEWTK

http://hometown.aol.com/aksutil/tom.jpg

[Randall]

Don't forget the genetically modified wasserplant, Andi. I'm not sure about the bottom of the page where it says "HSPs are usually a vision of a small creature that sits on the victims chest. The creature then either compresses the chest or attempts to strangulate the victim. Almost all attacks have been reported by people sleeping on their backs" but as a precaution, I'd sleep on my stomach. I've never been strangulated in my entire life.

And I can't sleep on my back or my stomach. Back to the drawing board, Dr. Wasserquack.

Randall

[Wassercrats]

You're probably hurting your hips then. My hip hurt a few times after sleeping on my side, so I figure it's bad.

Andi's plants aren't eveny spaced. That would freak me out.

[Andilinks]

The plants are spaced unevenly because I was backing into those cactus plants as I put them in. I have plucked a lot of cactus needles out of my ankles and calves. I 'm learning a new respect for them.

I don't recall having any unpleasant dreams since I was a small child worried about flying monkeys and the ww of the w.

I will be growing genetically modified flying tomatoes...
Andi

[Randall]

Andi's plants aren't eveny spaced. That would freak me out. Everything freaks you out.

I've been sleeping on my side for as long as I can remember (don't say it or I'll send another smiley to hurt you) and I can walk just fine. So there. :ras1:

Randall

[Wassercrats]

But I bet you can't hula like you use to.

[Randall]

I never could hula like I used to.

Randall

[CDarklock]

I'm not sure about the bottom of the page where it says "HSPs are usually a vision of a small creature..."

This is a historical footnote, not any kind of real data. Even in the early 20th century, HSP was frequently *interpreted* as forcible restraint by a wicked spirit.

The word "strangulate" comes to us the same way people talk about having to "orientate" themselves. Distortion is when you distort something, reflection is when you reflect something, orientation is when you orientate people, and strangulation is when you strangulate someone. The world is full of things like this -- drink/drank/drunk, so think/thank/thunk -- because English is a language invented and maintained by madmen.

[Bruce]

The world is full of things like this -- drink/drank/drunk, so think/thank/thunk -- because English is a language invented and maintained by madmen.Well, drink/drank/drunk and similar likely come from the same source as things like goose/geese -- Old German/Anglo-Saxon, from which the roots of English come. At least in the case of plurals, the pattern was to change the last vowel sound to make a plural. Most likely it was the French (Gauls) invasion that forced the "add-an-s" rule for plurals on them.

English has a really whacked lineage.

[Mandi]

The trick to side sleeping is a pillow between your knees, and one for your upper arm to rest upon - the now popular body pillows are one way to do it, but I actually prefer two pillows myself, the better with which to customize. This lets your top leg and arm rest fairly level, without putting undue strain on the lower shoulder or hip.

So sayeth the Queen of It Hurts No Matter Which Way I Lay, So On My Side it Shall Be.

I've read - and cannot remember where, for the life of me - that there is speculation that many of us feel naturally called to a longer than 24 hour circadian rhythm, because the earth used to rotate more slowly and the day was therefore a bit longer than it is now . . . but the old pattern is sort of imprinted in us anyway.

[Wassercrats]

the earth used to rotate more slowlyI assume there's mention of that in one of the links here (http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=89329&cid=7723956). I heard the same thing, but it's possible that artificial light changes us and even using natural light in an experiment isn't enough. The experiments should be done on newborns.

[Randall]

English has a really whacked lineage. Shouldn't that be "whunked"? The trick to side sleeping is a pillow between your knees, and one for your upper arm to rest upon - the now popular body pillows are one way to do it, but I actually prefer two pillows myself, the better with which to customize. No one should need more pillows than they have heads. :ytold:

Randall

[Snarpy]

Speaking of whacked/whunked English, as well as the subject of reclining:USAGE NOTE Lay (“to put, place, or prepare") and lie (“to recline or be situated") have been confused for centuries; evidence exists that lay has been used to mean “lie” since the 1300s. Why? First, there are two lays. One is the base form of the verb lay, and the other is the past tense of lie. Second, lay was once used with a reflexive pronoun to mean “lie” and survives in the familiar line from the child's prayer Now I lay me down to sleep; lay me down is easily shortened to lay down. Third, lay down, as in She lay down on the sofa sounds the same as laid down, as in I laid down the law to the kids.•Lay and lie are most easily distinguished by usage. Lay is a transitive verb and takes a direct object. Lay and its principal parts (laid, laying) are correctly used in the following examples: He laid (not lay) the newspaper on the table. The table was laid for four. Lie is an intransitive verb and cannot take an object. Lie and its principal parts (lay, lain, lying) are correctly used in the following examples: She often lies (not lays) down after lunch. When I lay (not laid) down, I fell asleep. The rubbish had lain (not laid) there a week. I was lying (not laying) in bed when he called.•There are a few exceptions to these rules. The phrasal verb lay for and the nautical use of lay, as in lay at anchor, though intransitive, are standard.Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/lay)

[Mandi]

So sayeth the Queen of It Hurts No Matter Which Way I Lay, So On My Side it Shall Be.
So sayeth the Queen of It Hurts No Matter Which Way I Lay myself, So On My Side it Shall Be.

[Randall]

See what you made her do, Snarpy? Now Mandi's lying to herself ... or something.

I think I need to lay down.

Randall

[Andilinks]

You totally forgot about Frito Lay the greasy snack and Ken Lay that nice man who ruined the lives of so many...

[Randall]

I am not putting Ken Lay between my knees, no matter how soft he is.

But I'm willing to eat those Fritos if no one else wants them, even though I'm not a big fan of corn chips. :safegrin:

Randall

[sheila]

Nah. I just call her the brown dog because she is brown. You know how people always ask things of pet owners like, "What kind of dog is she?" expecting some silly breed or something? Well, I tell people she is a purebred brown dog.
Yes, we get that too. "What kind of dog is he?" (as if we have any idea)

Chris tells them, "He's a purebred East Texas Houndog."

Personally, I think he is a squirrel dog. That would explain some of his hyper behavior.

[sheila]

The trick to side sleeping is a pillow between your knees, and one for your upper arm to rest upon - the now popular body pillows are one way to do it, but I actually prefer two pillows myself, the better with which to customize. This lets your top leg and arm rest fairly level, without putting undue strain on the lower shoulder or hip.
That is how I sleep, with one of those body pillows my honey got for me a few years back. I squish it all up so it fits just as good as two separate pillows. :P

[Dunx]

We've got body pillows for our cats. They're stuffed with catnip, and the cats will hug them with their front legs and scratch at them mightily with their back legs.

Cats don't need pillows to sleep.

[Andilinks]

This belongs here and is a good read if you're interested in sleep patterns etc.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/05/how-to-become-an-early-riser

From Daypop

[Evoir]

Ok, joining this thread late....

I used to require 12 hours sleep... until Miss Rose came along. Now, I'm good at around 6. Occassionally I sleep 8 or 9 on a Sunday. I have hardley ever used an alarm clock, only those few years when I have had a J*O*B where I had to be somewhere at 8 am or at 4 am (I was a baker for a few years). Oh, and a 1 year old is a great natural clock. :) But, I am finding some freedom in needing less sleep.... There is more time to spend with Rose, more time to get work done. It's like I was sleeping too much of my life away before. I'm quite happy about it.

It's great to hear how other people deal with sleep. It's been on my mind lately.

[Evoir]

Did I say 12 hours of sleep? That's not true. That was on a weekend.... I used to require 8-10 hours of sleep. Now, I can operate on 6-8. (except when posting on a web forum!)

[Melissa]

Interesting article(s), Andi. Thanks!

Although I have trouble stopping to go to bed sometimes, I absolutely love love love to sleep. Not one of those that looks at it as a waste of time. Quite the opposite. More of a chance to rebuild and renew. Very active dreamer so that probably has something to do with the enjoyment of it as well. :)

--Gimme 6-8 and I'm happy.

[kitchin]

I've been telling everybody about this article, which says sleeping four hours, waking up for an hour or two, and then sleeping four more may be more natural than "seemless" sleep. I found a Google cache of it here:
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:PaJYk_fqgQkJ:www.newyorker.com/critics/books/+%22new+yorker%22++sleep++night&hl=en&client=firefox-a


[Review of: "At Day's Close: Night in Times Past" by A. Roger Ekirch (Norton; $25.95).]
CARPE NOCTEM
by ARTHUR KRYSTAL
A little night history.
The New Yorker, May 30, 2005

...What rouses us from our own dogmatic slumbers, however, is Ekirch's assertion that "until the close of the early modern era, Western Europeans on most evenings experienced two major intervals of sleep bridged by up to an hour or more of wakefulness." People, evidently, awoke after midnight and, instead of tossing and turning, they regularly got up to talk, study, pray, and do chores.

In case we're skeptical, Ekirch has found references to the "first sleep," or primo somno, and the second sleep, sometimes called "morning sleep," in literature and letters. He has dug up a medical text that advised people with digestive problems to fall asleep on their right side during "the fyrste slepe," and "after the fyrste slepe turne on the lefte side"; and he assures us that Plutarch, Livy, and Virgil all invoked the term. Indeed, Ekirch supplies enough corroboration regarding the first and second snoozes to make segmented sleep seem like one of those customs, such as bundling and dog-baiting, which simply disappeared. "That all men sleep by intervals" required no further elaboration from John Locke, who did much of his sleeping during the latter part of the seventeenth century. Two hundred or so years later, as Ekirch sees it, artificial light had become so prevalent that people's sleep patterns began to change. Those who lived in cities were now able to work, read, and play long after nightfall, and segmented sleep gradually disappeared from urban culture.

What evolved is a shorter, seamless sleep, which, on the face of it, doesn't sound that bad. But Ekirch views our truncated sleep not just as a neutral statistic of modern life but as an offense against nature. Not only do we get too little sleep; our increased exposure to luminosity has "altered circadian rhythms as old as man himself." This, rather dismayingly, turns out to have some support in the medical community. In a study conducted at the National Institute of Mental Health which re-created conditions of "prehistoric" sleep, Dr. Thomas Wehr deprived volunteers of artificial light for up to fourteen hours at night for a span of several weeks. As Ekirch notes, the "subjects first lay awake in bed for two hours, slept for four, awakened again for two or three hours of quiet rest and reflection, and fell back asleep for four hours before finally awakening for good." In short, they began to exhibit "a pattern of broken slumber - one practically identical to that of pre-industrial households."

Wehr also observed that "the intervening period of 'non-anxious wakefulness' possessed 'an endocrinology all its own,' with visibly heightened levels of prolactin, a pituitary hormone best-known for stimulating lactation in nursing mothers and for permitting chickens to brood contentedly atop eggs for long stretches of time." And because Wehr "likened this period of wakefulness to something approaching an altered state of consciousness not unlike meditation," Ekirch proposes that we have lost touch with that deeper, more primal aspect of ourselves which emerges during moments after the first sleep. "By turning night into day," he writes, "modern technology has helped to obstruct our oldest path to the human psyche." If Ekirch is correct, then Thomas Edison placed entirely too much faith in his lighting device. "Put an undeveloped human being into an environment where there is artificial light," Edison predicted, "and he will improve."

But will he sleep as nature intended? It's hard to say. Most scientists are confident that internal biological timers regulate body temperature, hormone production, and sleep levels; and they're pretty sure that the suprachiasmatic nucleus, in the hypothalamus, regulates circadian oscillations. The neurobiology of the sleep-wake cycle is not in dispute, but it's one thing to know that some psychotic episodes are linked to malfunctioning biological clocks, and quite another to assert that segmented sleep is essential to some deeper understanding of who we are.

On what, then, does Ekirch rest his argument? Simply this: Because the break in sleep occurs at the end of an R.E.M. cycle (when dreaming is frequent), our ancestors were better attuned to the part of the subconscious which is responsible for dreams. And because they customarily jotted down their impressions of dreams it's clear that they took them more seriously than we do. By "they," Ekirch means the literate middle class, who supplied what evidence exists of segmented sleep. Apparently, the wealthy, who stayed up late, either enjoyed undivided sleep or failed to say otherwise. As for common laborers, they didn't know how to write, so there is scant evidence that they slept in shifts, and none to suggest that, had they awakened around midnight, they would have mulled over their dreams. It seems far more likely that a peasant, having spent ten or twelve hours in the fields clearing rocks, probably slept like one.

It should be noted that Ekirch's conclusion about the origins, if not the inadequacies, of seamless sleep was in dispute even before the publication of his book. In "Caffeine and the Coming of the Enlightenment," a brisk, informative essay that appeared in a 2003 issue of Raritan, Roger Schmidt, an English professor at Idaho State, stands Ekirch's argument on its head. According to Schmidt, it was the introduction of caffeine and coffee houses in the late seventeenth century, along with the practice of late-night reading, the development of the first accurate clocks and timepieces, and the consolidation of the Protestant ethos ("Time is money"), that worked to devalue the idea of sleep. And this, in turn, "created a demand for better nocturnal lighting." Just what we need: another chicken-or-egg argument.

...

[Randall]

Dr. Thomas Wehr deprived volunteers of artificial light for up to fourteen hours at night for a span of several weeks. As Ekirch notes, the "subjects first lay awake in bed for two hours, slept for four, awakened again for two or three hours of quiet rest and reflection, and fell back asleep for four hours before finally awakening for good." In short, they began to exhibit "a pattern of broken slumber - one practically identical to that of pre-industrial households." "Several weeks"? Heck, I can do that in one weekend -- and with the lights on.

Now, let me know if you find anything that explains how I can get out of bed, walk across the room, hit the snooze button, and get back into bed without waking up. Several times in one day. Every day. For many, many years.

My clock has two alarms, but I think I need a few more...

Randall

[Andilinks]

My clock has two alarms, but I think I need a few more...Place a tub of water on the floor between the bed and the alarm.

[Randall]

Place a tub of water on the floor between the bed and the alarm. Is that supposed to wake me up, or are you just trying to electrocute me?

Well, I suppose electrocution would get my attention, for the novelty of it if nothing else.

Randall

[Andilinks]

Wake you up. Covering the floor with live crickets would work..

[Snarpy]

Maybe Guido can stay with you for a while, Randall.

By the way, we are shopping for sleep sets, if anyone wants to offer any opinions.

Snarpy

[Randall]

Covering the floor with live crickets would work. But I couldn't vouch for my state of mind after fatally squishing a bunch of crickets. (Not deliberately, of course -- I have nothing against crickets, even played with them when I was a kid. But if the floor is covered with them, one must expect a high mortality rate.) Maybe Guido can stay with you for a while Dunno. I've always thought of baseball bats as more of a sleep aid than a waker-upper.

Randall

[Andilinks]

No crickets were harmed during the production of this mind experiment.

[Jason]

"Several weeks"? Heck, I can do that in one weekend -- and with the lights on.

Now, let me know if you find anything that explains how I can get out of bed, walk across the room, hit the snooze button, and get back into bed without waking up. Several times in one day. Every day. For many, many years.

My clock has two alarms, but I think I need a few more...


Sounds to mee like you need Clocky! http://web.media.mit.edu/~nanda/projects/clocky.html

[Randall]

Sounds to mee like you need Clocky! A clock that moves sounds good on paper, but then you have to worry about stuff like 3,000 mile oil changes, carpet rage and that bunch of lawyers just waiting for Clocky to squish a few crickets. No thanks.

I'd settle for a clock that requires some kind of measurable brain activity to shut it off, like maybe a software-driven control panel that rearranges itself at random.

Randall

[Wassercrats]

What's a computer geek like you doing with an ordanary alarm clock? I recently installed http://www.kirbyfooty.com/ .

(Kirby Alarm And Task Scheduler)

[Randall]

What's a computer geek like you doing with an ordanary alarm clock? I recently installed http://www.kirbyfooty.com/ . I use that here at work to run our nightly backups.

And my alarm clock ain't so ordinary (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004U8R5/qid=1118330134/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8__i1_xgl23/103-3430335-6037414?v=glance&s=electronics&n=1065836) -- it synchronizes automatically to the atomic clock in Colorado. Plus I can set the alarms to go off on weekdays, weekends, or both.

I use my Palm for non-wakeup alarms.

Randall

[Wassercrats]

I was having one of those dreamlike nightmares where you are kind of awake, kind of not awake and still in the dreamI was looking for an appropriate forum to set NASA straight on something, and found a new article about that type of dream stuff (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/bob9.asp).

[Randall]

I was looking for an appropriate forum to set NASA straight on something, What now? No, scratch that -- I don't wanna know. and found a new article about that type of dream stuff (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050709/bob9.asp). Interesting reading, but there were no evil creatures around on the night I had my weird experience (http://www.aota.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=133673#post133673). And nobody jumping up and down on my chest, either.

Based on some recent, mildly weird experiences with drug side effects, I think I know what was wrong. In school I remember learning about the internal "sense" that keeps track of all our body parts (wish I could remember what it's called -- Google has been no help on this one). It's some kind of mental map of where your elbows and toes are positioned, I guess.

I think my brain and my physical senses were having a heated argument that night about just where my arms and legs and other things happened to be at that particular moment. Not a huge difference of opinion, mind you -- might have been off by just a few inches. But extremely disorienting, especially right after waking up.

Anyway, that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. Aliens and demons need not apply.

Randall

[Wassercrats]

In school I remember learning about the internal "sense" that keeps track of all our body parts (wish I could remember what it's called -- Google has been no help on this one).Try searching for brain position body (http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2005-21%2CGGLG%3Aen&q=brain+position+body).

[Randall]

That still wasn't helping me find the word for it. But when I added "model" to the search it brought me to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception). :yeah:

Kinesthetic was the word I had in mind. And I knew it was connected to the "phantom limb" situation, but when I searched for that I was just finding stuff about phantom pains.

Randall

[Wassercrats]

Also, the 27th result for brain "body position" (http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2005-21%2CGGLG%3Aen&q=brain+%22body+position%22) is UIUC Kinesiology - Exercise Psychophysiology Laboratory (http://www.kines.uiuc.edu/labwebpages/psychophys/research5.html). All on one page for me.

[Randall]

the 27th result for brain "body position" (http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2005-21%2CGGLG%3Aen&q=brain+%22body+position%22) The search you gave me was brain position body, no quotes. There's a difference, you know.

Anyway, the 30th result on that search had this: PROPRIOCEPTION: The sensory awareness of the position of body parts with or ... But the site timed out on me. Not that it matters, because I'm too impatient to read down that far. That's why I stick to the default 10 results per page.

:ras1:

Randall

[Wassercrats]

raspberry rgb(135, 38, 87) (http://www.december.com/html/spec/colordec.html)

Your raspberry is rgb(255,96,96).

:teach:

[Randall]

Your raspberry is rgb(255,96,96). Hey, I didn't pick the color. And I think the inspiration behind that smiley is a sound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_a_raspberry), not a color. Blowing a raspberry or making a Bronx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bronx) cheer is to make a noise made to signify derision, made by sticking out the tongue between the lips and blowing to make a sound reminiscent of flatulence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence). In the terminology of phonetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetics), this sound does not appear to have an official name, but might be characterized as a labiolingual trill (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Labiolingual_trill&action=edit). Randall