Where's the manual?

[Alex Ethridge]

My site was running fine until I decided to upgrade my UBB.[nbsp][nbsp]I have succeeded in crashing everything at my site and get "Forbidden" even on my index page.

Frankly, I still do not understand this business of having a "phantom" www folder and how to use it, when not to use it, what sub-folders go in it (if any) what sub-folders should not go in it, how to define URLs to sub-folders within it, how to define URLs to files within it (other than the index) what permissions should be set for it, what permissions should be set on any sub-folders in it, whether or not I can make and use folders on the same level as the www folder (not within it), how I would use those and what they can and cannot be used for.[nbsp][nbsp]

There are, as you can see, a myriad of questions that, if I had the answers to, would eliminate a lot of frustration for me.

When I first set up my site, there was a manual that I printed.[nbsp][nbsp]It explaind to some degree how to set up my site, what permissions are allowed, etc, etc.[nbsp][nbsp]

Where is that manual now?

I still have the instructions I was sent by e-mail when I opened my FutureQuest account; but, using those instructions, I cannot even access the index page of my site.

I do not want anyone to fix this for me.[nbsp][nbsp]I want to know where I can get the knowledge to work this out myself.[nbsp][nbsp]I'm simply tired of being ignorant of how to manage my site.

[Dean B]

One golden rule Alex.[nbsp][nbsp]DO NOT set any of your scripts to MOD 777.[nbsp][nbsp]You'll bust everything which it looks like maybe you've done :(

I think maybe you're getting confused with symbolic links as opposed to hard links. Maybe Justin or Terra could give you a more detailed explanation.


------------------
Regards, Dean.
**DMCity Web Board**
www.dmcity.com/cgi-bin/ubb/Ultimate.cgi (http://www.dmcity.com/cgi-bin/ubb/Ultimate.cgi)

[Alex Ethridge]

As for chmod 777, I didn't set anyting above 755 as your instructions were when I set up the account--until last night, in desparation, I started trying anything and everything in an attempt to get it to work.

Thanks for your attempts to help, Justin; however, I don't understand anything you are saying.

As for this symbolic link, I would gladly and willingly give up everything in my site and start from scratch again if I could get rid of it.[nbsp][nbsp]To me, your explanation that it is like a windows shortcut doesn't make sense to me.[nbsp][nbsp]To me a shortcut is something I place on my desktop that starts a program; I don't understand how it compares with server paths.

To this point, my site has run not because I understood how to set it up, but because I placed UBB script along with .htaccess in every nook and cranny in my site.[nbsp][nbsp]I had no idea which folder was really functional.[nbsp][nbsp]It seemed, though, that if I removed any one of them the UBB wouldn't run at all.[nbsp][nbsp]It seemed as though it needed all of them when only one should have been needed.[nbsp][nbsp]I never did figure it out so, I just let it run the way it was after being frustrated in trying to figuring it out.

Your mention of the fact that new accounts may not be set up this way (phantom folders/symbolic links or whatever) because it causes confusion, has me thinking that I would gladly close this account and pay any setup fees for a new one that uses no symbolic links.[nbsp][nbsp]Is this possible?
[This message has been edited by Alex Ethridge (edited 07-03-99)]

[flowersource]

Justin,
If the UBB looks for the 777 setting, then it is possible some of the other cgi scripts do the same thing, and could possibly 'break' if I mess with the settings. I believe that I will leave them alone. you know what a tough time I have just getting one to work in the first place :D

And you know I make goofy mistakes and 'break' the UBB every time I have to do an upgrade.

Mike

[Justin]

Mike,

If a script is properly written it should work no matter what you do (as long as the files are still in fact writable). The UBB checks for mode 777 (this may have changed, I just know an older version did that and failed if it was any other mode). What they should do is find out if the file is writable by the script - regardless of the mode. With suEXEC running, it could conceivably write to a file at mode 600 - and this would be a file nobody can view or write to except for the owner - scripts under suEXEC run as you, the owner of the files.

Anyway, I think "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies here :)[nbsp][nbsp]I'd just leave them as they are. I left mine alone on my UBB as well.

-----

Alex,

No offence, but I think you should really learn where the UBB's files should go - as an example, imagine Windows Explorer. You have the tree on the left with all of your folders, branched out so you can literally see the relationship between them. Here's an example of what the server's directories would look like in this view:

http://www.hostfacts.com/folders.gif

This is from a tutorial I was working on - I didn't just now whip that up :)

A Windows shortcut is actually a file. This file simply tells the operating system that you want to go somewhere else. For example, if you right click on your desktop and select "New" and "Shortcut", and when it asks for the command line you type in "C:\Program Files", you have just created a shortcut, or a symbolic link, to your program files folder on your desktop. That directory is not actually in the desktop (which is itself a folder), it is merely a link.

On the server, in your /username directory, there is a shortcut to your /www directory. This directory is not actually within the /username directory - if you notice in your FTP program, you are actually being redirected to the /www directory when you click on the link (it should appear as a different icon in your FTP program - in CuteFTP it has a red arrow, showing that it's a link).

A symbolic link and a Windows shortcut do in fact work in almost exactly the same manner, with the exception that I don't think a shorcut works on the command line (DOS).

Above, in the tree folder view thingy, you will notice that the www directory is actually located at /big/dom/xdomain/www and the cgi-bin is in /big/dom/xdomain/cgi-bin. Nothing really needs to go in your /username directory at all.

I hope this helps at least a little - I am trying to be as non-technical as I possibly can, using Windows analogies since most people understand Windows.

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[Justin]

Just to give a slightly better representation, I whipped up another image:

http://www.hostfacts.com/newfolders.gif

Those in blue would be specific to your domain. The open folder that is shown open (~username) is the folder you start in when you FTP or Telnet in to the server. You can click on the www link to get to your www folder, but either way you are actually within the lower www directory - the one with the arrow is only a link, or a shortcut.

Consider the ~username directory as your desktop - it is only for you to access. No web browser can access that directory. Within that directory, since it is where you start up, there is a shortcut to the www directory only because it is the most commonly used directory (and it saves a click to get there, just like a shortcut).

A shortcut in Windows that launches a program is simply a symbolic link pointing to that program - for example, say you have a shortcut on your desktop to Outlook Express. That shortcut tells Windows to launch <font color=#FF0000>C:\Program Files\Outlook Express\MSIMN.EXE</font> - that's the actual program. It works the same if the shortcut points to a directory, or folder.

I am working on the PowerFAQ, which will have lots of tutorials, including one on the directory structure on FutureQuest's servers - hopefully the graphical representation will help users to understand the structure a little better, making it less cryptic than simply hearing /big/dom/xdomain etc.

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[Rich]

Where is that manual now?
http://www.aota.net/

Rich


[This message has been edited by Rich (edited 07-03-99)]

[flowersource]

I still have a ton of stuff set at 777, and everything works fine...should I probably change them, one at a time to 755, and check for proper operation before continuing to the next one or just 'don't fix it if it ain't broke&quot;?

Mike

[Justin]

When you first log in via FTP, you are in your home directory (named after your username). In that directory is a symbolic link to your /www directory (think of it like a Windows shortcut). I believe new accounts no longer have this symbolic link, as it causes confusion.

Your best bet is, once logged in, to go up one directory which brings you into /big/dom/xdomain. Once there you'll find your real /www directory, cgi-bin, etc.

If you're getting forbidden errors, it's possible you have an .htaccess file somewhere that shouldn't be there - either with an invalid directive or possibly uploaded in binary mode... otherwise the script shouldn't cause the entire site to not function...

As far as the symbolic link to your /www directory, you should never use it's path anywhere - it is merely there as a convenience when you log in via Telnet (so you can type cd www instead of cd ../www - I usually use the latter anyway :)

Let us know if this helps.

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[Justin]

Hi, Mike,

Files within the /cgi-bin should never be 777 - for anything anywhere else it won't hurt, although it's still not recomended. The UBB by default sets any file it creates to mode 777, and it works fine (in fact, I think if you were to change them the UBB would no longer work - not for permission reasons, but because it checks the mode before attempting to write and if it finds it's not 777 it dies out on it's own).

HTH

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[Alex Ethridge]

Justin,

I am sorry I have taken up so much of your time already.[nbsp][nbsp]Please, save your energy.[nbsp][nbsp]The explanations only bring up more questions than they answer and cause more confusion for me to try to understand.[nbsp][nbsp]It's this way every time I try to understand this thing.

If I cannot get it figured out soon, I'll just shut down the site altogether, set up my own Linux box, learn Linux on my own and then maybe I'll be back.

I think that what I need to do for now is pretend the symbolic link folder doesn't exist, pretend the cgi-bin folder doesn't exist, use .htaccess to set up a cgibin folder of my own within my www folder.[nbsp][nbsp]If that doesn't work, I'm outta' here.

I can't afford to pay someone to do this for me and even if I could, I would still want to do it myself.[nbsp][nbsp]And, I certainly don't want to become such a nuisance that y'all dread to see my name on a post.

Please, there is no need for more replies to this post.[nbsp][nbsp]I'm so disgusted with this thing, I told a friend of mine when he called to help (who also just moved to FQ this week), not to call me again about this for at least a couple of days.[nbsp][nbsp]I have deleted all my files from the server; I'll start fresh when I have less on my mind.
[This message has been edited by Alex Ethridge (edited 07-04-99)]