Cell phones as modems

[Randall]

One of my clients is asking me about using a cell phone with her laptop for internet access. I've been doing some research, but since I have no firsthand experience with this I'm hoping someone here can confirm (or correct) my understanding of how it works.

First off, am I correct that the Treo 600 she's been looking at does not have wireless modem capability? It seems to be geared around using the Treo itself for browsing and email.

And in more general terms: When you're using a cell phone as a modem, is it basically a dialup situation? In other words, you have ISP expenses over and above the calling plan, and your time online counts against your voice minutes -- and it also means that you can't receive calls while you're checking your email.

From my reading of Verizon's web site, what she really has in mind is their NationalAccess plan (http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/mobileoptions/nationalaccess/index.jsp?cm_re=Home%20Page*Top%20Nav*MobileOpt-NtlAccess). Anyone using that kind of service here?

Randall

[Wassercrats]

I just read Get On The Web No Matter Where (http://www.businessweek.com/@@cGhsboYQ5dwd6wcA/magazine/content/03_45/b3857614.htm). It's from November 10, 2003, but it describes Verizon's NationalAccess plan and also says "New, much faster cellular services are coming, including Verizon's BroadbandAccess (page 28) and an enhanced form of GPRS." But I don't think it answers your questions.

[TVB]

Get the usb cable, install the software, plug in, and dial your isp local number if you have one---just like dialup.

It's slow but is good for checking email. The cable is like $40.

Betsy

[Randall]

It's slow but is good for checking email. The cable is like $40. Probably good enough for her (she actually talked about replacing her cable service, but we won't go there). But that assumes that the phone has the capability. If she's stuck on the idea of the Treo and it can't act as a modem, then she's out of luck.

She also has it in her head that she's going to do this over Bluetooth, but I don't have the patience for it. I'm trying to get out of this consulting stuff, not dig myself in deeper. :hrmm:

Randall

[Randall]

OK, further investigation reveals that a program called PDANet (http://www.junefabrics.com/palmnet/index.php) will let you use the Treo as a modem, and it appears to use the phone provider's data network -- no other ISP needed.

Not clear on whether calls can get through while you're online.

I think I need to talk to someone who's using the Treo this way, because I just don't have enough info to know whether this is a good idea or a disaster waiting to happen (like those $1,000 phone bills some Treo/Verizon users have complained about). She doesn't have the patience to be an early adopter, and I'm not going to play support tech on this one.

Randall

[kitchin]

I've used a medium-speed direct "wireless web" connection on a Samsung cell phone, carrying Sprint, from my laptop. It's somewhere between modem speed and DSL speed. (And much faster than an older generation of 11 Kbs computer-to-cell-to-modem service.) I'd say it's closer to DSL in speed, but it uses lossy compression, and the connection can be flaky. On the other had, it connects a bit more quickly than a modem, and you don't need to dial into an ISP. It just connects to the same Sprint wireless web service that lets you browse the web on the tiny cell phone screen, or get sports scores from text menus, or send text messages and email. The Sprint dealer, Radio Shack, sold us the USB cable and necessary software -- the software that makes it lossy of course. Well, I read up on it on http://broadbandreports.com and it turns out the whole thing is unofficial, not supported and you can get booted if they notice you, say, using a lot of bandwidth. You're supposed to buy a business-level plan for an expensive wireless device for your computer, and keep a separate account for your phone!

Each company is different. Going to the web sites of Nextel, Alltel, etc., it takes a lot of work to figure out when "wireless web" means you can actually connect it to your laptop.

Ridiculous! Isn't it obvious that this is what people want?

Also, it drained the cell battery pretty quickly. The USB cable was just big enough to make it impossible to plug in the battery charger into the cell phone. So I researched if that was intentional. Again, confusion and lack of clear info.

[Randall]

Well, I read up on it on http://broadbandreports.com (http://broadbandreports.com/) and it turns out the whole thing is unofficial, not supported and you can get booted if they notice you, say, using a lot of bandwidth. You're supposed to buy a business-level plan for an expensive wireless device for your computer, and keep a separate account for your phone! Yeah, I noticed this little footnote to Verizon's PDA/Smartphone plan: The Unlimited plans cannot be used: (1) for any applications that tether the device to laptops, PCs, or other equipment for any purpose In bold, no less. That would seem to conflict with the PDANet-type uses, would it not...?

I hate this stuff.

Randall

[kitchin]

Yeah, I edited and added some more gripes to my post while you were posting!

[Snarpy]

It's slow but is good for checking email. I never thought of this. How slow is it? Is it just like regular dial-up?

Snarpy

[kitchin]

The USB cable and connection software Radio Shack sold us was not sold by Sprint, I should add. It is produced by 3rd-party company called FutureDial. You might get some info from that web site http://futuredial.com Or at least see a nice picture of a cell phone connected to a laptop!

[Randall]

Also, it drained the cell battery pretty quickly. The USB cable was just big enough to make it impossible to plug in the battery charger into the cell phone. That's another thing I was wondering about. Presumably with something as big as the Treo they wouldn't interfere with each other, though.

FutureDial doesn't mention the Treo on their compatibility list, but I'll keep it in mind if she asks about other phones.

Basically I'm just feeding her info as I find it. I also told her that she's pretty much on her own with this, because it's not my area of expertise. Eventually she's going to need a new computer guy anyway.

Randall

[Wassercrats]

I'm trying to get out of this consulting stuff, not dig myself in deeper.These current questions seem easy though. Just email support for Treo, Verizon, etc. and ask. Then post the replies here and complain that they don't help. Works for me.

[Randall]

Maybe I should. Seems like a lot less work. :wink:

Randall

[Syneryder]

I'll be following this thread closely, and I'll contribute if I can. I just got a retail GSM Treo 650 and it has built-in Bluetooth Dial-Up Networking. I've yet to try it out, but I need it for my road trip through the US this year. I have to get it working somehow.

Someone mentioned USB cables, I know you can get one for the 650 that will also charge the phone through the USB cable. That might help the Treo battery life, not sure if there's something similar for the 600 though.

$1,000 phone bills sounds crazy (what were they downloading?) Data rates in Australia are about 1c/KB, or 3.3c/KB when on global roaming. That sounds like a lot, but when I'm actually using it it hasn't been that expensive. I've been using my Treo for about 2 weeks now and I've only used about $4 - $5 of data credit. That's with a lot of email, some web browsing and even MSN instant messaging on the Palm. (In other words, I'm still in a new-toy phase at the moment.)

I think PDANet will solve the problems for your client, but if I come across anything else that might be helpful I'll let you know.

[kitchin]

The data usage on Sprint is unmetered, at least for billing purposes, the last time I checked. The word on rechargin the cell phone through the USB cable is that it is a bad charger because it does not charge smartly. So it will reduce the lifetime or capacity of your battery. The info I read did not seem like FUD, but it could be. It said a lot of after-market cheap chargers are baaad. P.S. If you go to the solar energy web sites, there are lots of small battery chargers.

[Randall]

I just got a retail GSM Treo 650 and it has built-in Bluetooth Dial-Up Networking. Verizon isn't offering the 650 yet. But if yours has a dialup option, the 600 may also -- just not Bluetooth.

Maybe. :dunno: $1,000 phone bills sounds crazy (what were they downloading?) You always have to take these stories with a grain of salt, of course.

Allegedly, users discovered that the Treo "checks in" on a regular basis, often enough go way past the 5MB/mo of the metered plan. Whether this involved any user error, I don't know. But if even the potential for it is there, she'd be better off with the $50 unlimited plan ... yeah, the one that expressly forbids laptop use. :rolleyes:

Randall

[Brian]

I have used my sprint phone as a modem (via usb) in the past with my laptop. Results are in line with what everyone else has said. I believe currently Sprint has the fastest speeds, though they are spotty and leave room for improvement.

As was mentioned Verizon is working on making its network faster for data, and when done it will be pretty fast from what I hear (though I suspect it will have some of the spotty problems Sprint has).

In regards to software, none is needed with sprint for the two phones I used this on (other then a driver for your computer). You simply need to create a new connection and dial out using #777 as the phone number to connect to (and I believe enter anything for user/pass). I am not sure how this works with other programs.

-Brian

[NoahM]

I had used a USB cable with a LG Sprint phone a couple of years ago. The drivers weren't well documented and required some digging to locate on the web, but that was a while ago.

I now use the Treo 600 for quick surfing on the go and when necessary I throw a connection card from sprint (http://www1.sprintpcs.com/explore/PhonesAccessories/ConnectionCards.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1480469&CURRENT_USER%3C%3EATR_SCID=ECOMM&CURRENT_USER%3C%3EATR_PCode=None&CURRENT_USER%3C%3EATR_cartState=group&bmUID=1109637589623&navTemplateName=CONNECTION_CARDS_TEMPLATE&navTemplateText=Connection%20Cards) into my laptop. This way I can surf while sitting in an airport and still use my phone to discuss whatever I am working on. I had found that I often needed to make calls etc. while using the phone as the modem, which posed a problem.

I have heard good things about PDA Net, but have never tried it myself. If you have the TREO 650 the DUN is still there but disabled for Sprint, but this has been hacked succesfully and the bugs are bing worked out. The advantage that everyone wants with the Treo 650 is the convenience of sitting down with your laptop and jumping online using the bluetooth so you never even have to take the phone out of it's case.

The old way worked and since it was free, no they never tracked me down of using too much on my all you can eat plan, not a bad solution. The connection card is great, but since it is data only you have to sign up for a data plan based on what you think you will use. It is easy to set up and is master than regular old dial-up. I still wouldn't even consider using it for a primary connection, but when a hotel doesn't have broadband or you are somewhere else like an airport, coffee shop, etc. (anywhere you can get PCS coverage) it is a lifesaver.

The Treo 650 for the Cingular/AT&T network will supposedly be compatible with their new EDGE system, but I don't recall exactly what speeds they are quoting for the new system.

I do have a friend who spoke to a Verizon rep sho claims they will NOT be getting the 650 on the Verizon network because of QC issues. Verizon is well known for heavy compatibility testing which often keeps phone that are approved on other networks from making onto theirs.

Bottom line, for infrequent use you can't beat the cost of using the all you can eat Sprint offers with decent connections speeds, but if you will be using it regularly and need to use the phone at the same time, get the connection card.

Also, I don't think you could receive calls when using the phone as a modem. I am jsut guessing with how my treo won't take calls when checking emails.

[Randall]

Thanks for the info, Noah. The Treo situation seems to be coming into focus now, I think. Had you actually used the Treo as a dialup modem?

Randall

[NoahM]

No, I have read about people using it at treo central (http://www.treocentral.com). I had used the LG phone as a modem using their network as opposed to calling a regular ISP using the cell phone as a true modem. From what I remember using it to call your ISP directly would result in painfully slow connection speeds.

[Randall]

From what I remember using it to call your ISP directly would result in painfully slow connection speeds. Got ya.

The "connection card" seems to be the best way to go, if you can afford it. Everything else has not-insignificant downsides.

Randall

[manish]

Before you go ahead and use your cell phone as a modem, please remember there are 3 ways of connecting to the internet:

1. Dialling an ISP (the old fashioned way) - This is very slow and unreliable. This is called a 2G connection (second generation). All you need is some sort of a connection to your phone for this.

2. Using a Circuit-switched call (basically using multiple voice channels for data). This is CDPD in GSM and I believe it is 1xEV in CDMA. It is a special type of a call in UMTS. You basically charged per minute for this type of a call but you get higher data rates and better quality. This is called a 2.5G connection (i.e. a bridge between 2 and 3G - although some purists will disagree with this). Again, all you need to use this with your laptop is a USB cable or a bluetooth connection.

3. Using a Packet-switched call - This is the true future and what people call 3G. This involves setting up dedicated channels just for data. This is GPRS and EDGE in GSM, (I believe) EVDO in CDMA and HSDPA in UMTS. You get very high data rates with this type of a call. You will typically sign up for an unlimited plan on this kind of a network and you basically get a pseudo-dedicated pipe (it's actually shared in some networks, but you get the point). Technically, GPRS and EDGE are not 3G technologies - they really are 2.5 G, but we will leave those arguments for people who really care ;) Again, all you need to use this with your laptop is a USB cable or a bluetooth connection. I believe the data card that sprint sells will do EVDO for you and they have special unlimited plans along with the card - please verify this.


The future of all these technologies is a 4G network (using OFDM technologies).


What this means to you?
If you are going to be on the net for a long time, do not use a 2.5G technology - you will be paying through your nose because you get charged minutes. Use GPRS/EDGE/EVDO (HSDPA has not been deployed anywhere, however, the Packet switched call in UMTS will be better than the EDGE technology currently available - so use that if that is available to you). And, make sure that you sign up for an unlimited data plan. For example, Tmobile has it for $20.

If you are just going to check some data here and there, you don't even need to sign up, the 2.5 G connections are usually "always present" kind of a thing - check with your provider about that.

Just my 2 cents - please research the rate plans before actually making the plunge - US carriers are known to be very underhanded about giving out this information.

Also, check http://www.howardforums.com/ if you need more details. I don't know too much about the plans, but I can answer questions you have about the technologies involved :)

Hope this helps,

Manish

[NoahM]

I don't think Sprint has any "3G" technology yet, but more the "2.5G". I don't know about the other carriers, but Sprint has reasonably priced unlimited plans for this type of connection. This is what by Treo uses. If you go with a connection card with Sprint the charges are not per minute, they are per kb. Not sure of the exact connection speeds with Sprint PCS, but it does seem reasonably fast considering what it is.

[Randall]

Before you go ahead and use your cell phone as a modem, please remember there are 3 ways of connecting to the internet: Augh! Now it's even more complicated. I have no idea what Verizon is using, or even where (they have a broadband plan that may or may not cover her area).

I think I'm going to hide under my desk for a while and commiserate with all of the wires. They probably get an inferiority complex from reading this stuff...

Randall

[YFS200]

Well, I had a bunch more typed, but a cookie issue sent it to //dev/null . Here is a quick overview.

If you use a cable to your phone and dial your ISP, your going to get 9600 speed and use up your minutes.

I use GPRS with T-Mobile for all my remote access needs. The speeds are about the same as a 28.8 to 33.6 modem. It cost about 20 bucks extra a month to add the unlimited GPRS data plan to an existing voice plan. You can take calls when you are on a GPRS connection. It just puts it on hold and then reconnectes when you are done.

I use my Noika 6310i with Blue Tooth phone to connect. I also have the serial cable. Both make the phone look like a normal modem and works under any OS that can dial out.

I use it all the time with my Zaurus and it works quite well. I downloaded over 2GB in one month once.

It's not perfect, but if all you need is internet access right now and speed is not a big issue, it's great.

The only other way I would suggest is with the Verizon plan. You can use one of the Verizon PC cards for laptops. They says it gets about 500Kbps speed. That is quick, but it also cost $80 a month last time I checked.

As for sprint, A lot of people on some of the phone forms have been kicked off for downloading too much on there "unlimited" plan. Take with salt.

[Wassercrats]

I don't know if this belongs here or in the VoIP (http://www.aota.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18809&highlight=wireless) thread or neither, but here it is:

Yeah, I noticed this little footnote to Verizon's PDA/Smartphone plan:
Quote:
The Unlimited plans cannot be used: (1) for any applications that tether the device to laptops, PCs, or other equipment for any purpose
I just read some of FCC acts to quell blocking of Internet calls (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7081698/). Maybe that means Verizon isn't allowed to do that.

[EVDOguy]

You have to be very careful if using a phone as a modem to your laptop. That type of service (On Verizon), costs $15/month and using a PC Card for unlimited costs $80/month. There was one guy who did this and got a $1430 bill (http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=583413) for the month, so watch out.

EVDOguy
EVDO Info (http://www.EVDOinfo.com) :: EVDO Forums (http://www.EVDOforums.com)

[Randall]

While that sounds (vaguely) like the Verizon/Treo horror stories I've heard about, all it really tells me is that the cell phone companies do everything they can to cloud the issue, so you never can tell if anyone knows what they're talking about.

Not that this is restricted to data usage. :hrmm:

Randall

[Randall]

Just to follow up, she went with the Treo but didn't sign up for a data plan at this point. Figures she'll get a card for her laptop when/if the need arises.

And maybe by then I'll understand all of this stuff. :confuz:

Randall

[GoyoNeuff]

I'm so glad I found this forum. :bow: Thanks Manish, I'm getting the idea. This is our problem:
I'd like to connect my Siemens cf62t or my wife Samsung e105 to our PC for internet access. I guess it would be easier w/the samsung since it has IrD port, therefore no need tu buy extra cables (less money invested :yeah: -we had just moved and ran out of money :wah: -). Basically, I want to get online w/out paying anything more than our family plan. I read somewhere that w/ T-mobile t-zones we can get in; but somewhere else I read that now T-mobile close "the 80 port" (not idea what exactly this means) and now we've to pay the $19.99 internet plan.
Now, I don't have any clue what is " CDPD, GSM, 1xEV, CDMA, UMTS, GPRS, EDGE, EVDO, CDMA, HSDPA", etc, all this terms used by Manish :hrmm:
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks all,
K.

[GoyoNeuff]

An interesting Glossary

http://www.german-way.com/handy_voc.html

K.

[MarkLee]

I have a question.

For those of you who are trying and successfuly, are you using the Internet service from the phone service provider, or are you just dialing up to a different ISP?

'coz it's so expensive with the phone service provider here.

Does this work with a sharp gx22?

[kitchin]

http://futuredial.com/ has a lot of info on specific phone models.

As for the ISP, the newer, faster systems seem to tie you to the cell phone company as ISP. Using an older system, which connected through the serial port, Sprint allowed you to dial into any ISP through a central bank of modems at Sprint. The speed was not speed, it was slowness: 9600 bps.

When I read YFS200's post, I thought that it was describing an even more basic type of connection: from your computer modem to the cell phone???? I've never understood why that would be impossible, unless it's the flakiness of the signal.

[YFS200]

At one time, you could get internet access with just the T-Zones plan. It was a bug in the system. It may or may not be fixed now depending on your area.

My phone acts as a modem. I can connect up the serial cable and type AT and it says OK.

On any provider (that I know of), if you use your phone to dial a ISP's modem bank, like DSLExtreme or just any other modem, the max speed you will get is 9600. OK for email, worthless for anything else. And uses up your minutes.

With T-Mobile, I dial #99* and it connects to the T-Mobile GPRS service at around 30kbs. It does not use up and minutes and you still can get calls. On the unlimited plan, you can use as much as you want. But they do put up a firewall so you can't run any servers. :wah: