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View Full Version : Notice: "Our Policy vs Theirs" -- TOS/Spam Complaints, Warnings, Violations


Deb
01-23-2005, 06:48 PM
This message is being posted as an informational notice concerning how and why issues, such as the most recently discussed issue with AOL, are being handled. The arguments, concerns, and general distaste for the complaints clients are receiving from FutureQuest, as the "bringer of bad news", by way of complaints brought against FutureQuest, from other networks such as AOL, are something we do sympathize with. However, I felt it was important for us to explain our position in this situation, within the forums, for clarity, for reference, and for discussion if you so choose to discuss it.

Regardless whether or not FutureQuest agrees or disagrees with the policies of other networks, and regardless whether or not you agree with the policies of other networks, neither you nor FutureQuest can single-handedly change those policies overnight nor is it likely that, even working together, we could change them quickly. What is a guarantee is that if we ignore their policies, we, and those who share these services with us, can all be blocked from being able to connect and communicate with those that use the other provider's services. The other guarantee is that when the "innocent argue with the innocent", the "guilty" are not affected in any negative way whatsoever.

Using the AOL Network as our example, since they are of primary concern currently and their policies are freshest in our minds, we all know how detrimental it would be to FutureQuest as a company, as well as thousands of FutureQuest's clients, if a blockade were to happen between AOL and the FutureQuest Network. This is _NOT_ something FutureQuest is able to risk for the sake of our own well being and the well being of thousands of our clients.

For this reason, FutureQuest is putting forth the human time/energy/money to ensure each and every client receives a notice concerning each and every complaint that is brought against each and every account they have serviced by FutureQuest. If a client requires multiple notices, or an investigation of that client's usage habits reveals a situation that is likely to generate more complaints, then FutureQuest currently has no choice but to restrict that client from doing whatever it is they were doing that caused the complaints to be received.

ONE COMPLAINT MAY BE ALL IT TAKES. If every client were to get one complaint today -- that may be all that's required for every client to be blocked.

This restriction may be in the form of demanding they stop forwarding mail to AOL (or other provider as the case may become) or updating a mailing list to a clearly defined comfirmed opt-in status, or changing a SpamAssassin setting or halting an autoresponder, or anything else that may help to resolve the complaints being placed against the FutureQuest Network due to that client's usage habits. This is true REGARDLESS of our agreement or disagreement with the basis of the original complaint.

If FutureQuest does not enforce our policies, which includes the prevention of breaking the policies of others -- thousands will suffer the consequences. If you do not agree with the policies of others you have the option of either ensuring you do NOT support/use their services or contacting them in an attempt to change their policies. I personally wish FutureQuest had the option of "banning" certain "others", however, in this business doing so would only serve to take us off the internet in short order :( Remember, arguing with us, or even each other, over the policies of others is not the same as arguing with "the others" directly ;)

FutureQuest's Terms of Service (http://www.FutureQuest.net/Services/TOS/) clearly states right near the top:
Conformance with the Policies of Others: Account Holder shall not use, nor shall it recklessly or knowingly permit others to use, the FutureQuest Services: (a) in violation of the terms set forth by other Internet Service Providers (ISPs), where data is carried across networks of other ISPs; or (b) in violation of the terms set forth by FutureQuest's providers of which Account Holder has knowledge.

The above policy simply means that you can not use any part of the FutureQuest Network or services to violate the rules of another network.

Admittedly, when that policy was created the "policies of others" were not the same as they are now. Nevertheless, the Term must still be adhered to. Just as different states and/or countries have different laws, various networks have various Terms of Service and Acceptable Use Policies.

When your feet leave the ground of one country and land on the ground of another country, you are now obligated to follow the laws of that other country. Oftentimes this means not bringing perfectly good and healthy fruit across the border. Consider your email a piece of fruit and the sending of it from one network to another, crossing the border. The country you are coming from may feel the fruit is fine. The country you are going to does not. This means you can either keep your fruit in the country that allows it, or, or, or ummmm, nothing. Unless you want to risk breaking the laws of the other country; for which, if caught, there will be consequences.

Unfortunately the consequences of the email laws are far more severe and far reaching than the consequences of smuggling a single orange across the border. Smuggling a little orange likely will not cause "The Wall" to be put back up or another cold (or hot) war between the two countries. Trying to sneak your email across the border, however, will create "The Wall" between the two networks and many can suffer as a result. Getting "The Wall" built is much easier and faster than it is to get that wall taken back down.

If it sounds terribly serious and somehow exaggerated... it's because it IS that serious.

Now let's look at one of AOL's policies.

Complaints submitted by AOL members will be used as a basis for refusing connections from any mail server.
Reference: http://postmaster.aol.com/

Folks, if you must send email to AOL, which we perfectly understand because we do ourselves. It is IMPERATIVE that you educate yourself throughoughly about AOL's policies and the actions of the recipient of your message.

If the recipient complains to a provider such as AOL, with a policy like the one above, then you have successfully broken their policy, generated a complaint against FutureQuest, which then turns into FutureQuest sending you a complaint, which, if required, will turn into a service restriction placed upon your account.

Arguing with FutureQuest over this issue will only serve to cause us to have to spend more time on the complaint generated by AOL e.g. cost you and us both more time/money/energy while costing 'the other provider' nothing and generating no change whatsoever in the policies or procedures. It will not help to resolve the issue with AOL and their client.

Continuing to ignore the problem with AOL, thereby continuing to "violate their policies" which is a "violation of our policies" will serve to either get all of FutureQuest blocked by AOL, or you blocked (terminated) by FutureQuest. Requesting FutureQuest to "resolve the issue with AOL" is arguably the same as requesting FutureQuest to remove all email services from our web site hosting plans, or at minimum require internal mailings only, or at best, allowing external mailings with the exception of mailings bound for [insert growing network list here]. E.g. we cannot afford to purchase some mythical guaranteed white list from AOL for the entire FutureQuest Network :P To ensure mail continues to flow, is to ensure we continue to maintain this situation as a community effort by ensuring no one in the community breaks the rules of other networks. Impossible? Probably. Possible to at least keep it to a minimum to avoid "The Wall" absolutely! :)

My simplistic feeling on how this happened is:

-------
The soil == those who respond to and make money from spam

The seed == the true spammers and networks that support them

The water == the hard core anti-spammers that have helped to create and push for some of the erroneous anti-spam policies

The fruit of this combination = the trouble we now find ourselves in.
-------
Mind you, I am NOT discounting the anti-spam efforts in any way. I am simply noting that large networks, such as AOL, have responded to these requests with a hand as tough as the hand of the anti-spammers for lack of a better solution or the finance to deal with such a large scale issue. Their solution is cheap and effective in its simplest automated form....

So in summary:

FutureQuest's Policy is:
Conformance with the Policies of Others: Account Holder shall not use, nor shall it recklessly or knowingly permit others to use, the FutureQuest Services: (a) in violation of the terms set forth by other Internet Service Providers (ISPs), where data is carried across networks of other ISPs; or (b) in violation of the terms set forth by FutureQuest's providers of which Account Holder has knowledge.

We have that policy for several obvious reasons and cannot afford to allow it to be broken as the consequences are severe whether imposed by state/federal laws or by the rules of other networks and/or internet users.

"The policies of others" are just that. The policy of others.

Example:
Complaints submitted by AOL members will be used as a basis for refusing connections from any mail server.
Reference: http://postmaster.aol.com/guidelines/standards.html/
Note I bolded "mail server" to emphasis that the "other network" is not interested in blocking "just the violator" but rather, the entire server that supports that violator...e.g. everyone who uses it not just 'the one'.

So please try to keep yourself abreast of the policies "of others". FutureQuest is doing the same and will alert you to these situations as we are alerted to them. And remember, when you use any part of our network services to connect or send to any part of another network's services, you are now obligated to follow not only FutureQuest's policies but the policies of the network you are connecting to.

If you do not like the policies of a provider, it's important that you make this point clear with the other provider and, where possible, work to change it by either not using their services (yes, if you send an email to their network you are using their services), or communicating with them about it. Arguing with AOL about FutureQuest's policies will bring little to no results. For FutureQuest to hear you, you need to "argue with us". Arguing with FutureQuest about AOL's policies will also bring little to no results. For AOL to hear you, you need to "argue with them".

Again, please note, that though I use AOL within this notice as the primary example of "other networks" and "the policies of others", the policy of FutureQuest remains the same and applies to ALL OTHER NETWORKS not just AOL. FutureQuest and its clients all suffer when another network feels the need to block us from connecting to their services. So remember, it's not "just AOL". AOL just happens to be the one affecting our clients the most right now.

Also note, MANY of FutureQuest's clients have been EXTREMELY courteous, cooperative, friendly, and anything but argumentative. We absolutely appreciate those of you who have handled yourselves and these complaints with the utmost in professionalism. Those who have been helpful by providing more tips for how to deal with these situations are greatly appreciated! Those who help us to resolve these issues in a "short and sweet" responsive manner save an enormous amount of time for both yourselves and the FutureQuest team. We thank you.

The need for this post is to provide yet another way of looking at the situation and hopefully an understanding of why FutureQuest must address situations of this nature in the manner that we are. Many of us "only see an innocent orange". It's often difficult to understand the reasons "crossing the border with that orange" is such a big deal. Let me assure you, a single innocent email has in fact become "that big of a deal" and thus being responsive and professional in handling the effects of the complaint it may generate will be most helpful in bringing forth the end goal of allowing FutureQuest to continue servicing all aspects of your account successfully.

Now if you made it this far in such a wordy post... I commend you :bow:

Deb
- Remember - we are on your side :)

farlane
01-27-2005, 07:18 AM
That was a long post. :wink:

As I see it, FQ is going to have no choice but to disallow list sending to AOL (which might not even be enough).

I had two AOL spam complaints last night. One was a complaint on the "Hello, if you want to add your email to the list message" and another on what looked to be the 4th message in a conversation regarding a litter of puppies to an AOL user. The 4th message, meaning AOL user asked question > client answered > AOL user asked MORE questions > client replied AGAIN and > AOL user (most likely by accident) hit the dern Report Spam button.

There isn't any way to engage in "normal" email congress with a network with a spam policy like AOLs. You can develop policies to comply with Federal and all state laws, but no policy save "do not email said network" will combat their "spam policy".

I know from experience that people who are presented with options to remove themselves from lists will instead email the address of the list to be removed (FQ lists don't work that way). Faced with the choice of following the removal procedure or simply reporting the message as Spam, your average lazy and clueless user will choose the easy way out and click the Spam button.

Whoops. Looks like the long-windedness is catching. Sorry.

To summarize, I see that the choices are:
1) Change ezmlm to simply not process any email with an AOL address
2) Set up a premium (pay extra) mail server that is totally divorced from the FQ network that is exclusively for lists
3) Raise holy hell with AOL (yeah, right)
4) Some combination of above three
5) Grin and hope that there won't be too much blockage by AOL (and that the blockage won't be permanent)

Andilinks
01-27-2005, 07:50 AM
http://hometown.aol.com/aksutil/spam.gif

With the "report spam" button immediately next to the "Delete" button on AOL's mail client window I'm not surprised that many unwanted emails often get reported as spam in the "Select All" then delete mouse movement.

Thanks for all the thought and work you are putting into this Deb. Looks like you lost some sleep over this one.

Andi

farlane
01-27-2005, 08:12 AM
That picture is worth more than 1000 words, Andi.

That's the most ludicrous UI decision I have ever seen and I revise my opinion to say that there is NO WAY FutureQuest can avoid being blocked by AOL.

I think that the root of the problem is that FQ is one of the larger little fish in the pond. AOL won't block Hotmail, GMail or Yahoo or any of the major national ISPs because too many AOL users would squawk. Smaller ones who have enough users to pling AOLs sensors will be blocked.

It's unfair, but AOL can and (unless they are made to feel pain) they will.

turtlepimp
02-10-2005, 02:54 PM
Ok,so let me ask you this,Debra.I have AOL,with spam contols like everyone else (ok,I fear change).I recieved a Spam Warning report from AOL.Sent by Futurequest.

In my spam controls,I pick the words I want to get tanked into a spam folder.Pimp is one of the words I use.Obviously,my domain name attracts some less than desirable spam.

So my question is this,before I call some poor guy in India to voice my outrage,is another AOL user also has chosen "Pimp" as a chosen word in his/her spam folder,does this automaticaly get reported?To AOL?

Today,based largely on my addiction to Vicoden :rasberry: A prescription drug spam got though.I clicked 'Report Spam" only to see it then get sent into my spam folder.

Bob
02-10-2005, 03:50 PM
Hello,

It appears that you have your FutureQuest hosted email set to automatically forward to your AOL address.

The email that AOL reported to FutureQuest as spam is an email you received through your FutureQuest account and then it was forwarded to your AOL account and then it was marked, either by you or automatically, as spam.

AOL's policy is they consider the last sending network to be the origin of any spam reported to them by their users. Regardless of how anyone feels about that approach, that is the AOL approach.

So if you receive a spam email at your FutureQuest hosted email account and forward that to AOL and then report the spam to AOL then AOL issues a complaint against your domain and the FutureQuest Network... :confuz:

The obvious fix for this is Not to forward any email to an AOL address as we are still unsure how much is reported automatically versus manually pressing the "Spam Button".

We do try to allow folks a choice and if you forward mail to AOL and do not generate complaints from AOL we are very happy to leave well enough alone. However if additional complaints are received we have no choice but to require that no further email forwarding to AOL occur from that account...

-Bob

turtlepimp
02-11-2005, 08:39 AM
I do realize this is kind of a pointless conversation,but the keyword that sent the Futurequest email was "service" AKA any email with the word "service" in it hits my spam folder.Than I am given a choice to either delete it,or open it.I never sent any email into the spam folder,it is just where it wound up.

Does AOL just seem to be picking on Futurequest?From what I can see,espeicially with "report spam" being clicked day after day on the same pieces of junkmail,that this might be the case.

Here is a copy of what Furturequest sent me.

----
Notice Type ............: Abuse Complaint Received from AOL.com
Warning Attributed to ..: turtlepimp.com
Additional Complaints ..: May Result in TOS Violations
----

Hello,

FutureQuest has received an abuse complaint related to the
possible distribution of unsolicited e-mail (spam) or a possible
security violation from you or one of your customers. A copy of
the offending message has been pasted to the bottom of this
message for your review.

This notice is not an accusation or judgment upon you, your
domain, your mailing habits, or other operations. The intention
of this notice is to provide you with an opportunity to
implement corrective and/or preventative measures where
appropriate.

This notice serves to inform you of a complaint FutureQuest has
received as if you had received the complaint directly. The
complaint was not investigated and therefore not verified to be
valid by FutureQuest.

FutureQuest will not embark upon any punitive action regarding
spam or security complaints without explicitly and formally
contacting you regarding a clear, verified complaint, or a
pattern of abuse.

Refer to http://www.FutureQuest.net/Services/TOS/ for general
questions regarding FutureQuest's stance on spam or abuse.

*** Action Requested ***

Educate yourself and/or those you may be sending email to on the
AOL Network about AOL's "REPORT AS SPAM" option. Note that AOL
does NOT review the email message for accuracy, forgeries, or
originating sender. This means that ANY message the AOL user
reports as spam will automatically be reported as such,
regardless whether it actually is spam or obviously is not spam.

The accuracy of the report is not considered by AOL in this type
of situation, nevertheless, AOL will block FutureQuest's Mail
Servers from AOL's Mail Servers if spam complaints continue.

Some discussions within FutureQuest's Community Forums that are
specific to this AOL problem, are located here:
http://www.Aota.net/Forums/showthread.php?t=18709
http://www.Aota.net/Forums/showthread.php?t=18645
http://www.Aota.net/Forums/showthread.php?t=18424
More discussions can be found using the forum's search feature.

If you should have any questions or concerns regarding this
matter, please let us know by either responding to this email or
visiting the Community Support Forums to ask questions or add
comments for community discussion.

Email.: Service@FutureQuest.net
Forums: http://www.Aota.net/Forums/

We also encourage you to contact AOL if you should have any
questions concerning the procedures that have caused them to
report your domain as the source of spam or other inappropriate
messages: http://postmaster.aol.com/

Finally, we thank you for your attention concerning this matter.

Sincerely,

FutureQuest, Inc.
ZenForce Abuse Team
http://www.FutureQuest.net/


---------- Begin Copy of Complaint ----------

###########################
## COMPLAINT RECEIVED
## FROM: AOL.COM
##########################

Subject: Client TOS Notification
From: scomp@aol.net
Date: Thu, February 10, 2005 2:31 pm


###########################
## COMPLAINT AGAINST
###########################

turtlepimp.com
turtlepimp@turtlepimp.com
FutureQuest Network

###########################
## COMPLAINT REPORTED BY:
###########################

Undisclosed Recipients

###########################
## ORIGINAL MESSAGE AS
## Received from AOL.com
###########################

Return-Path: <mailcenter318640@vm-mail.com>
Received: from rly-yh06.mx.aol.com (rly-yh06.mail.aol.com [172.18.180.70]) by air-yh03.mail.aol.com (v104.18) with ESMTP id MAILINYH31-792420bb65017a; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:30:40 -0500
Received: from mx09.futurequest.net (mx09.futurequest.net [69.5.6.181]) by rly-yh06.mx.aol.com (v104.18) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYH64-792420bb65017a; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:30:24 -0500
Received: (qmail 25859 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 19:30:24 -0000
Received: from pt03.futurequest.net (pt03.futurequest.net [69.5.6.179])
by mx09.futurequest.net ([69.5.6.181])
with QMQP via TCP; 10 Feb 2005 19:30:24 -0000
Delivered-To: turtlepimp@turtlepimp.com
Received: (fqmail 30140 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 19:30:24 -0000
Received: from mx03.futurequest.net (mx03.futurequest.net [69.5.6.174])
by pt03.futurequest.net ([69.5.6.179])
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Received: from vm-177-53.vm-mail.com (vm-177-53.vm-mail.com [206.82.177.53])
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with ESMTP via TCP; 10 Feb 2005 19:30:24 -0000
Received: from vm-mail.com (192.168.3.10)
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X-ClientHost: 11611711411610810111210510911206411611711411610810111210510911204 6099111109
X-MailingID: 318640
From: Net Detective <netDetective@vm-mail.com>
To: <Undisclosed Recipients>
Errors-To: errors@vm-mail.com
Reply-To: MailCenter <mailcenter+318640@virtumundo.com>
Subject: Find out anything about anyone with Net Detective
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-AOL-IP: 69.5.6.181
Message-ID: <200502101430.792420bb65017a@rly-yh06.mx.aol.com>
X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:30:40 EST


Net Detective 1392 South Woodland Blvd. Deland, FL 32720

------------------ End Copy ------------------

GSK8
03-06-2005, 05:38 PM
1) Change ezmlm to simply not process any email with an AOL address

How does one do the above suggestion?

I'm going to download my current list, send the current AOL'ers an polite email explaining that they will be unsubscribed and why. Then I'm going to delete all current AOL addresses.

They can also resubscribe using a different email.

Input welcomed before I work on this.

sheila
03-08-2005, 01:39 AM
How does one do the above suggestion?

I'm going to download my current list, send the current AOL'ers an polite email explaining that they will be unsubscribed and why. Then I'm going to delete all current AOL addresses.

They can also resubscribe using a different email.

Input welcomed before I work on this.This post contains a suggestion on how to block AOL addresses from an ezmlm mailing list:
http://www.aota.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=127066#post127066

GSK8
03-08-2005, 10:28 AM
Thanks Sheila!

ryount
03-09-2005, 09:36 PM
We are part of the club now. One of our domains got hit with it's first AOL spam warning. The user must have accidentally hit the report as spam button since the message was a reply to the AOL users message asking about check in time at one of our resorts. The complaint even included the users original message. Clearly AOL doesn't review these complaints before they go out.

Rich
03-10-2005, 12:14 PM
Clearly AOL doesn't review these complaints before they go out.
That's right...because per AOL's logic there is no reason to review it because if the user pressed the Spam button then the message must be--by definition--spam!

GSK8
03-10-2005, 04:45 PM
We are part of the club now.

Welcome!

There are many perks to becoming a member of AAA (AOL Abusers Anonymous). However, you will receive an honorary membership once you receive an email like the below (from an AOL'er who subscribes to your newsletter and then reports it).

I opened and read your newsletter. It must have inadvertantly put in SPAM after I read it. Can you put me back on your mailing list? I'm sorry about the notice from AOL.

Andilinks
03-10-2005, 05:22 PM
Even when they were at the height of their innovative best in the early '90's AOL made some astonishing bonehead blunders, so it is hardly surprising that in their doddering dinosaur years they are missing their faces with forkloads of food...

40 million Frenchmen can't be wrong, 24 million AOL members can be. Actually the Frenchmen are clueless too...

The smartest among us are those who bought AOL in 1995 and sold out in early 2000, I regret to say I missed that boat.

Andi

John Kennett
03-11-2005, 07:38 AM
I've had a couple in the last week or so, both from forum users.

Rather than ban all AOL addresses I have now reset all the options that may desult in an email being sent, for all users with AOL accounts. I have emailed them all (I know, it's a bit risky!) to tell them, and posted the same message on the forum for posterity.

If anyone's interested, details of how to reset the preferences in vBulletin are here:
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132383

And the forum message that I posted is here:
http://www.rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9053

Fingers crossed that this will be enough to stop this getting out of hand!

John

GSK8
03-11-2005, 09:29 AM
Thanks John!

sheila
03-12-2005, 02:05 PM
I checked out John's post on this topic on his ribnet forums. Very good post, by the way. In it, he suggests that searching on Google will show how wide spread and pervasive this problem is. Having not previously tried this (let's face it...I've seen enough of this problem from a front-row seat), I decided to try it...

Here are two sites I found that had what might be useful information for others who are trying to decide how to handle the AOL situation...
(I've quoted a teaser from their page...)

http://custom.listrak.com/listrak/upgrade/winter-04.htm

For anyone interested in reducing the number of AOL “Report as Spam” complaints here are three ideas you can implement today:
Have a clear “From Address” and “Subject Line” – If an AOL user can quickly determine who you are they are less likely to report your message as Spam.

Educate your email recipients at the point of acquision on how, when and who will be contacting them via email. Tell them how you will use their email address – newsletter, coupons, promotional, etc. Tell them when they will receive email campaigns from you – daily, monthly, quarterly, etc. Tell them who will be emailing them so they can add that address to their “AOL accepted senders” list. Doing these three things will greatly improve your deliverability to AOL.

Provide a clear and easy way for AOL users to opt-out at the top of your email campaign. Keep in mind that AOL users are generally less tech-savvy than other Internet users. Make sure that you are providing an opt-out means that appears to be safe and easy to use.

http://www.bettersex.com/custserv/privacy.asp

If you use AOL as your internet service provider you may receive our mail at first as junk mail or “spam”. This is not unique to us, many companies experience this problem with AOL. You may want to add us to your address book to make it easier to see and read our emails and insure receipt. Do this by clicking ...

...

If you would like to shorten this process, click on the “add address” button on the right panel when you have our email open. This will add our address to your address book so AOL will know you would like to hear from us without all this work.

Use the add address button on AOL to insure you receive our emails.
(the above page also provides a little graphic showing the "add address" button, to help the AOL user in identifying it...

Anyhow, in the fwiw category...

Andilinks
03-23-2005, 11:55 AM
Since Internet cafes all have AOL installed it is much easier to check AOL mail than pop accounts, but any web-based mail is easier.

Is there any objection (yet) to my forwarding my FQ mail to my Gmail account?

edit: Yes, I have used Quest mail from remote locations. I'm thinking it might be easier to consolidate everything to Gmail.

Andi

DogAndPony
03-23-2005, 12:02 PM
Is there any objection (yet) to my forwarding my FQ mail to my Gmail account?I'm guessing there wouldn't be, since the G people would have to disconnct all of their brain cells in order to make an interface as brain-dead -- and create policy as brain-dead -- as AOL's.

...Bob

Bob West
-- We're talkin' opposite ends of a very, very, very, very, very broad spectrum.