Linux, perl, php3, MySQL -- where to start?

[LeafWind]

Okay, I think I'm finally settled in nicely with this new puter, now I'm ready to start seeing what I can do with it.

I'm wanting to get into web development more, so I want to learn and run locally: linux, perl, php3, MySQL, and whatever else is necessary to work with those.

I really don't know where to start, though.

My only experience with Linux thus far has been a handful of encounters with it via Telnet to find out why a cgi script wasn't working.[nbsp][nbsp]
Perl: I've learned enough to customize the output (sort of) of most scripts that I wanted to run on my sites, and I've learned enough to know that I want to learn a lot more, maybe create my own scripts someday.[nbsp][nbsp]
Php3 -- I copied and pasted a bit of code offered by Justin once, and it worked nicely (thanks again).[nbsp][nbsp]
MySQL I haven't touched, but it looks very useful.[nbsp][nbsp]Especially in regards to the forum script thread, as I know I'll be setting up a forum soon on a site that's being planned out in my head.

So what do I install first, and where, and how?[nbsp][nbsp]What's easiest, what's cheapest (I noticed somewhere that the Linux version of MySQL is free, but you have to pay to run it under windows), what's best for learning to use these tools for web development for sites to be hosted at FQ?[nbsp][nbsp]While I'm at it, is there anything else I should be considering installing?

I know there are quite a few posts on this already, but as an absolute newbie, I find it all a bit overwhelming and confusing, and I don't know where to start.

I'm running Win98, with a 400 Mhz AMD cpu and a 4.3 gb harddrive, if that makes a difference.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Bekariso

------------------
www.LeafWind.com (http://www.LeafWind.com)
Growing web sites that thrive in the winds of change.

[DanS]

Leafwind:[nbsp][nbsp]even though Perl is extremely useful, I would have to say 1) forget Perl for now and 2) forget linux for now.[nbsp][nbsp]They both offer valuable lessons, but a PHP/MySQL combination is very potent and is easy to get started with.[nbsp][nbsp]When you have an expanded range of things that you need to do, learn Perl.[nbsp][nbsp]What you have learned in PHP will serve you well.

There is a counter-argument to this view, however.[nbsp][nbsp]If you learn by having a large set of examples and a library of published books, learn Perl first, because it has all of these.[nbsp][nbsp]Also, if you develop with more than one host, learn Perl, since PHP is not supported by most hosts (this could change rather quickly, of course).

Even though I have a dual boot W95/linux machine, I tend to use W95.[nbsp][nbsp]**As he hears gasps of shock from the audience**.[nbsp][nbsp]Just dial-in to the internet and develop on FutureQuest's machine (they always have the latest version, etc.).[nbsp][nbsp]This not may be possible for you, if you pay for your access by the hour or telephone by the minute.

[This message has been edited by DanS (edited 05-18-99)]

[Justin]

The first thing you should do is install Apache - they have a binary exe installer and everything - note, however, that you will want to change the default install directory to something without a space in the name (stupid InstallShield hehe).

As for MySQL, the Windows version does cost if you plan to use it commercially, but if you are using it for private developement it does not cost. There is no time limit or anything like that - it's more like an honesty thing I guess, so you can install it locally and not have to worry about it.

PHP and MySQL both come as binary (exe) installation routines also. So does Perl, and although I agree you may find it easier to learn PHP first, you might like to install Perl anyway so you can at least run prewritten scripts locally.

I have a full local copy of my site including the UBB, hosts database, etc with only minor differences. You might find it helpful to mirror the directory structure locally (c:\big\dom\xdomain\etc) as I have found it much easier this way - no paths need editing before uploading :D

Let me know if this helps...

Justin

[LeafWind]

Okay, here's where the lame questions start.[nbsp][nbsp]Expect many.[nbsp][nbsp]I want to understand what I'm doing and why *before* I do it.

Why install Apache first?[nbsp][nbsp]What will that do for me?[nbsp][nbsp]Do I run the others through Apache, or what?

I do want to learn perl, as I already have dealt with a few pre-written scripts and would like to configure them even more.

I understand there are different "flavors" of linux -- which is recommended for my needs?[nbsp][nbsp]I have heard of some people partitioning their disk to install it, and others who run it from Windows or from a dos prompt.[nbsp][nbsp]Which way should I do it, and how?

On the cost for MySQL: here's what they say at http://www.mysql.com/Manual_chapter/manual_Licensing_and_Support.html


The formal terms of the license for non-Microsoft operating systems such as Unix or OS/2 are specified in section J The
MySQL server license for non Microsoft operating systems. Basically, our licensing policy is as follows:

For normal internal use, MySQL generally costs nothing. You do not have to pay us if you do not want to.


and


For use under Microsoft operating systems (Win95/Win98/WinNT), you need a MySQL license after a trial period of 30 days,
with the exception that licenses may be obtained upon request at no cost for educational use or for university- or
government-sponsored research settings. See section K The MySQL license for Microsoft operating systems. A shareware
version of MySQL-Win32 that you can try before buying is available at http://www.mysql.com/mysql_w32.htmy. After you
have paid, you will get a password that will enable you to access the newest MySQL-Win32 version.


So from what they say there, it seems I would have to pay after 30 days if I run it from Win98.[nbsp][nbsp]If anyone understands this differently, I'd like to know.

Thanks muchly,

Bekariso


[This message has been edited by LeafWind (edited 05-18-99)]

[julieA]

Where can I learn to install Apache? What are the system requirements? I have never worked with DOS so will I have trouble getting this up and running so that I can learn Perl?
sincerely,
julieA

[LeafWind]

This seems to be the official Apache site, though I am just starting to look at it myself now:

http://www.apache.org/

I don't yet see much information on newbies installing it locally for testing web development projects, but I might not have come across it yet. ;)

Bekariso

[julieA]

I notice also that Justin is running 1.3.4 and now 1.3.6 is available. What do you think?

[Cassiop]

Me too! Me too! :)
I've just started to learn Perl/CGI and I'd like to be able to test my scripts locally, as phone bills are outrageous here. I'm very eager to learn PHP too.
I've consulted the Apache site but it's a bit like reading Chinese for me :(
Does someone know if there's a good tutorial to learn how to install all that stuff under Win95?
Bekariso, Julie, good luck!

Cassiop[nbsp]

[LeafWind]

I didn't find enough clear information for my needs to figure out exactly what I need to download, or where to install it.

I think we should wait until Justin and the other techies come hold our hands and walk us through a bit more!

Someone should set up a website about downloading, installing, and running web development systems and applications for the absolute newbie who plans to go far. *hint, hint!*

Bekariso

[Justin]

http://www.visca.com/clueless/gs_perl_apache_win95.html

That's where I got the idea from, way back when I was a newbie to all of this myself (yes, all the way back to Feb 99 :))[nbsp][nbsp]It's a little outdated, but read it through a couple of times and you'll understand the basic idea.

I haven't bothered to upgrade to Apache 1.3.6 yet, but DeanB is using it - I don't see any reason to upgrade really just for personal use - I don't know if there are any new features or not...

HTH

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[LeafWind]

Hi Cassiop!

I didn't see your post before I posted.


Does someone know if there's a good tutorial to learn how to install all that stuff under Win95?



Someone should set up a website about downloading, installing, and running web development systems and applications for the absolute newbie who plans to go far. *hint, hint!*


... seems we think a lot alike!

Well, there's three of us so far . . . anyone else?[nbsp][nbsp]Maybe we should hold a virtual install-fest!

Bekariso

[LeafWind]

Oooh, thanks Justin, this one looks helpful.[nbsp][nbsp]

My "tutorials and development help" folder in my bookmarks is getting bigger and bigger . . . not that I'm complaining, I like lots of options for help.


way back when I was a newbie to all of this myself (yes,[nbsp][nbsp] all the way back to Feb 99


Fast learner![nbsp][nbsp]Well, that does give me a lot of encouragement, too, to see how much you've done so fast, though I do understand you have much much more programming background.
[nbsp][nbsp]
I do have quite a bit of DOS experience, though, and programming edcation in Comal (yes, that's Comal, not Cobal -- least used programming language ever, taught by my highschool on 286's that didn't have hard drives . . . way back in the dark ages of 1994 . . .) and some Turbo Pascal at the university level, so I think I'll pick up on the concepts quickly, it's learning the syntax that will be tedious.

And now I'm off to look at this site in more detail.

Bekariso

edit:

Okay, now things are starting to come together.[nbsp][nbsp]At least enough for me to have more specific questions. ;)

A few questions:

1) does this work the same under Win98?
2) is the version of perl they suggest still the right one, or is there one more similar to what FQ uses (or does it matter)
3) what about the version of Apache?[nbsp][nbsp]when looking at the downloads page at www.apache.org (http://www.apache.org), I couldn't make much sense of it to figure out what file(s) I actually needed.
4) where does linux fit in? php? mysql?[nbsp][nbsp]Or is that getting ahead of myself?

Thanks so much for your patience with all these questions.[nbsp][nbsp]I really appreciate all this help and support.

Bekariso
[This message has been edited by LeafWind (edited 05-19-99)]

[Justin]

The route I'm showing you does not involve Linux at all - you would be setting up the Windows version of Apache (as though you had an NT server, only using 98). Yes, same under 98 as 95.

The version of Perl should be 5.004.02 or something similar - when you follow the link to the ftp archive you'll find many different versions - just grab the newest one you can find there (you'll be looking for a Win32 binary, either as a .zip or a .tar.gz file (WinZip should handle either of these)). Same deal with Apache, BTW.

PHP would be installed in about the same way - it comes as a binary (probably in a zip file full of dll's and php.exe).

Once you have apache running, where you can type "localhost" into the address bar and see the apache docs, the rest is easy - just follow the readme's carefully :)

Justin

[julieA]

http://builder.cnet.com/computing/webbuilder/Servers/Apache/ss01.html

I found this link which seems to be a how to for newbies. I am reading it now. Details to follow. . .

sincerely,
julieA
------------------
mother of eight, wife of one...

[julieA]

Do I want to take the extra step of compiling the program, Justin, did you need to increase environment space to accommodate the Microsoft compiler?

[Justin]

No need to compile it - just download the binary version, not the source code. The binary is basically a precompiled version of Apache, eliminating the need to compile it (same with Perl and php).

Compiling is something you would want to do if you were running a real web server, for stability I guess, but there's no need in this case - I didn't compile either, just ran the installer program.

PS - If you do compile Apache (or any C/C++ program), don't go out and get M$'s compiler. There are many freeware compilers out there that are better / free. I use DJGPP for my C/C++ work. The only MS compiler I use is VB6, but of course never for any web work...

Hope this helps :)

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support
[This message has been edited by Justin (edited 05-20-99)]

[Cassiop]

Hello there!
Justin, thanks for the address. Seems very helpful.

Well, there's three of us so far . . . anyone else?[nbsp][nbsp]Maybe we should hold a virtual install-fest!

I'm OK for a party. I'll bring some VVFF (Virtual Vegetarian French Food).

Cassiop

[LeafWind]

Hey Cassiop, you a veggie too?[nbsp][nbsp]Very cool.[nbsp][nbsp]I guess I'll be bringing the Canadian vegetarian food, then!

Hmm, potluck, open source software, seems like a perfect match to me!

I'm off to actually install the Apache for windows myself, I'll post back and tell how it goes.

Much thanks to Justin for being so patient with my questions!

Bekariso

[LeafWind]

Okay, I have gone as far as I can in installing Apache, now I am slightly confused and would like some clarification before I go further.

First of all, the tutorial suggested by Justin tells what you have to edit in each of access.conf, srm.conf, and httpd.conf, but in the latest binary version of Apache for Win32, it puts everything in the httpd.conf file and suggests leaving the other two empty "to avoid confusion."[nbsp][nbsp]So line numbers for what I have to change don't work, but that's okay, I'm coping.

Justin said:

You might find it helpful to mirror the directory structure locally (c:\big\dom\xdomain\etc) as I have found it much easier this way - no paths need editing before uploading


okay, sounds like a very good idea. The webpage tutorial Justin suggested says

Change the <Directory &quot;C:/apache/htdocs&quot;> (line 34) to whatever your main directory for serving pages is.
[nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp]For example, if the base path of your on-line hosted pages is /usr/etc/htdocs/your_site, you probably want
[nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp]to simulate that on your PC. So make a directory called c:/usr/etc/htdocs/ and install your pages there; thus
[nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp]c:/usr/etc/htdocs/index.html would be the document that is called when someone hits
[nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp]http://www.your_site.com. This is your main DocumentRoot (see the srm.conf file). So, change the line to:
[nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp]<Directory &quot;c:/usr/etc/htdocs&quot;>.


so what do I put for Document Root in this section?

#
# DocumentRoot: The directory out of which you will serve your
# documents. By default, all requests are taken from this directory, but
# symbolic links and aliases may be used to point to other locations.
#
DocumentRoot &quot;C:/Apache/htdocs&quot;


Do I make it &quot;C:/big/dom/xleafwind/www&quot;
or &quot;C:/big/dom/xleafwind/htdocs&quot;
or &quot;C:/big/dom/xleafwind&quot;

or something else?

Thanks in advance,

Bekariso<!-- NO_AUTO_LINK -->

[Justin]

DocumentRoot should be set to whatever you'd want accessed when you access your domain root (localhost in this case), therefore:

c:/big/dom/xdomain/www

Note that you still use forward slashes here, BTW. Apache 1.3.4 uses the single file as well - I had the same added confusion, but you should be able to find the proper lines to edit (most of that file is comments anyway, which is very helpful).

You'll also want to set up your cgi-bin, which would be something like:

Scriptalias /cgi-bin/ &quot;c:/big/dom/xblah/cgi-bin/&quot;

HTH :D

Justin

[DKG]

Arrgghh.
I've been studying this stuff all day, and, well, I'm getting depressed :( .
I am VERY protective of my PC - I hate installing anything.[nbsp][nbsp]I know I sound pretty silly :o , but this stuff looks scary. Installing Apache, MySQL and PHP...
And very time consuming, beween reading all the docs, deciding where to put what and actually &quot;doing the deed&quot;.
I'm also thinking I should partition first...?
Am I being unnecessarily paranoid?
I guess my question is: <whine>&quot;Do I really have to?&quot;</whine>
What about DanS's recommendation to &quot;Just dial-in to the internet and develop on FutureQuest's machine&quot;? I wouldn't expect it to be as demanding on the server as the actual usage would be, but...
Anyway, what are the biggest drawbacks to doing that?

[LeafWind]

Hmm . . .

I changed what the &quot;Clueless Lou's&quot; tutorial and Justin said to change, saved the file again (I was just editing it in a text editor) and tried &quot;the open browser and type &quot;localhost&quot;&quot; thing -- no good.[nbsp][nbsp]Grey screen, a flickering message saying &quot;Unable to connect&quot; in the status bar at the bottom of the browser window, nothing else. No error message or anything.

So . . . how do I go about finding what the problem is?[nbsp][nbsp]Any suggestions?

I really do appreciate all your help with this, Justin (and anyone else who feels like jumping in and giving me a hand here). :)

Bekariso

[Justin]

Ok, I'm pretty sure this was in Clueless's tutorial or the Apache readme (you did read the readme, right? :) ), but maybe not...

You have to map localhost (or any made up domain you like really) to 127.0.0.1, which is the standard IP address for a local server. To do this, find in your c:\Windows directory a file called HOSTS. Open it up any at the bottom somewhere:

127.0.0.1[nbsp][nbsp] localhost

Or you can do what I did - for my sites, I used local.hostfacts.com and local.vdj.net - but now we're getting into virtual hosts...

Ok, anyway, you could do local.leafwind.com easily with one line:

127.0.0.1[nbsp][nbsp][nbsp][nbsp]local.leafwind.com

Or whatever - doesn't matter how many spaces, doesn't matter what line, just needs to be there.

You could just type http://127.0.0.1/ into your browser while Apache is running (or click the link hehe) and get there, but it's easier to map a simple made up domain name :)[nbsp][nbsp]Oh, you (and the rest of the world) can access it from your IP address you are currently dialed up with. This is handy for letting people check out a site before it's ever on the server (especially with your cable modem <evil jealous grin> ) but just always[nbsp][nbsp]be aware that it is accessible as long as apache is running :)[nbsp][nbsp]I freaked DeanB out when I posted in his UBB on his PC :D

Justin

[Justin]

Oh, BTW - who needs ICQ? If this below image is broken, I'm not online (or I had to dial up again and got a different IP hehe) - who needs ICQ?

http://208.154.170.4/online.gif

I hope this page doesn't get a LOT of hits, as it has to load that through my modem (this is just for demonstration purposes I guess).

:)

<edit>My luck I get disconnected 20 minutes after posting this lol</edit>

Justin
[This message has been edited by Justin (edited 05-20-99)]

[LeafWind]

Thanks . ..

but still didn't help.[nbsp][nbsp]The tutorial actually says after telling how to edit the .conf files:


That's it. Double-click on the apache.exe binary and a command prompt window should open up and stay up. Minimize it, open
your browser, write &quot;localhost&quot; in the GoTo window, cross your fingers, and your homepage (or the index.html page in whatever
directory you assigned DocumentRoot to) should be displayed.


so that's the step I was at.

I then did what you suggested just now, which is also the next step in the tutorial, found c:/windows/hosts.sam and renamed it to c:/windows/hosts -- the line

127.0.0.1[nbsp][nbsp] localhost

was already there.

I still get &quot;unable to connect&quot; type messages when I type localhost or 127.0.0.1 in the browser's &quot;Go to&quot; window.

I'm thinking maybe I missed something in the .conf file, but I changed just what it said to in the tutorial, and I don't think I missed anything . . .

The readme file (which I did read first) was profoundly uninformative.[nbsp][nbsp]There is also a multi-page &quot;manual&quot;, but I didn't delve into it yet -- going to do that now.

edit:
Nope, no help in the manual.[nbsp][nbsp]The only tips on setting up the .conf files:

First edit httpd.conf. This sets up general attributes about the server: the port number, the user it runs as, etc. Next edit the srm.conf file; this sets up the root of the document tree, special functions like server-parsed HTML or internal imagemap parsing, etc. Finally, edit the access.conf file to at least set the base cases of access.


. . . so not much help there.

:end edit

Thanks!

Bekariso

[This message has been edited by LeafWind (edited 05-20-99)]

[julieA]

Bekariso, Any further updates? I'm following this thread closely. Didn't want to start installation that might get interrupted by labor pains (I'm due in 12 days but doc says who knows when) but I'm anxiously awaiting the blow by blow details of your installation attempts.
sincerely,
julieA
(waiting on pins and needles with breath held)

[pier]

Take a look at your network-settings, you might also try
your Computer-name.

Other things to try (from your dos-box):
[nbsp]- First check your localhost-setting:
[nbsp][nbsp] ping localhost
[nbsp][nbsp] This really should work :)
[nbsp]- Check the apache-server with telnet:
[nbsp][nbsp] telnet localhost 80
[nbsp][nbsp] and, if you connect, type 'GET' (without quotes)
[nbsp][nbsp] (or telnet 127.0.0.1 80)
[nbsp][nbsp] If this works, the Apache server works, and it is another
[nbsp][nbsp] setting (maybe with your browser) that mangles you.

Pier

[LeafWind]

Hi Julie!
If the anticipation gets to be too much (or even before then), try going to see a Chiropractor.[nbsp][nbsp]My Chiropractor treats many women through their pregnancies, and when they come close to their due date and get too impatient, she can actually adjust their spine in such a way that the nerves are stimulated to begin labour![nbsp][nbsp]Much better than chemically-induced labour, for you and the child.[nbsp][nbsp]Also I would have to recommend taking the new baby for a Chiropractic checkup when he or she is born.[nbsp][nbsp]When I started going to a Chiropractor at age 20, my Chiropractor could feel my spine and tell me how I was born (very accurate!) -- how I wish it had been treated sooner.[nbsp][nbsp]Check out our site (designed by our company for our Chiropractor) at www.ChiroForLife.com (http://www.ChiroForLife.com) for more info, if you're interested!


And back to the topic of this thread: my slow and tedious attempt to install Apache.[nbsp][nbsp]Doing a ping on localhost and 127.0.0.1 both worked very nicely.

edit:
Okay, I figured out how to telnet in, as well -- I can connect to localhost (port 80) 127.0.0.1 (port 80) and my computer's assigned IP (port 80).[nbsp][nbsp]However, typing Get doesn't do a thing -- I don't even have a prompt.[nbsp][nbsp]Because linux and perl aren't installed? Or is this something I need to change in Apache?
:end edit


Take a look at your network-settings, you might also try
your Computer-name.

What should I look for?[nbsp][nbsp]I'm on a cable modem connection, so my network-settings and computer-name are set up for that.[nbsp][nbsp]Do I need to disconnect from the cable network and change them when I'm wanting Apache to work locally?[nbsp][nbsp]Or do my network-settings and computer-name need to be in my httpd.conf file somewhere?

Thanks for the ideas, I hope this leads to something!

Bekariso

PS. Would this be easier to set up under Linux?[nbsp][nbsp]I understand this way to setting it up isn't supposed to require it, but I would like to learn Linux anyway. . . ?


------------------
[nbsp][nbsp]www.LeafWind.com (http://www.LeafWind.com)[nbsp][nbsp]
Growing web sites that thrive in the winds of change.

[This message has been edited by LeafWind (edited 05-21-99)]

[LeafWind]

Oh HELLO?[nbsp][nbsp]I was thinking about Pier's comment on network settings, and how my puter is connected.[nbsp][nbsp]I checked out my assigned IP number and typed it in the Go To: window, and

Lo![nbsp][nbsp]This appears to be it![nbsp][nbsp]I am seeing the website I set up to be my default.

Yes?[nbsp][nbsp]No?[nbsp][nbsp]Is this a good thing?[nbsp][nbsp]What do I need to do now to make sure it behaves properly, and to set it up so that I can work with other websites locally as well?[nbsp][nbsp]Would this work if I was not connected to the internet (yeah, I know, have to test that one myself, just thinking out loud).

This is cool . . .

Bekariso

[pier]

I checked out my assigned IP number and typed it in the Go To: window, and Lo![nbsp][nbsp]This appears to be it![nbsp][nbsp]I am seeing the website I set up to be my default.


When you off the net (can this happen ? :)), just run your
winipcfg and check the ip-address. This SHOULD work...

Try a telnet <winipcfg.ipaddress> 80 when your disconnected,
now you should be able to establish a connection.

Pier

[LeafWind]

Okay, when disconnected and running Apache, I can telnet to localhost and 127.0.0.1 but not to the IP address that I had had in winipcfg (which I have to release to disconnect, anyway).[nbsp][nbsp]And nothing works to bring up the local version of my website.

So, should I check something in my browser's settings, or is the problem elsewhere?

Thanks.

Julie:[nbsp][nbsp]It's great to hear that you have a Chiropractor. And yes, I know plenty about TVP (well, more than I know about Apache, anyway) and eat it often, what would you like to know?[nbsp][nbsp]I'd be happy to share.


Bekariso

[Justin]

This thread has been continued:

http://www.aota.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000338.html

It's grown quite large, but it's a popular topic, so we'll continue it with a new thread :)

------------------
Justin Nelson
FutureQuest Support

[julieA]

Thanks, Bekariso, for the chiropractic advise. I do have a chiropractor but am waiting patiently for ;) !! 11 more days because I want a June baby. I know it's obsessive but I have Jan, Feb, Mar, May, 2 Sep (tried for Aug), and Dec babies. Love patterns and order, see. Hate chaos or disorder. Probably why I like computers. Hey, do you know anything about TVP? Got a question to email you if you do.
Back to the install. I have no cable modem but the reason for installing the whole shebang is to be able to run everything through the home pc, so the install should be the same, right, guys? Will Windows remain open when I start the install? I have a lot of trouble installing things since I added McAfee Office :( (don't understand WHY *%$!! and wonder if it will interfere with the apache install? Worried it'll crash the whole darn thing.
------------------
mother of eight, wife of one...