An IE rant

[Erica C.]

Please forgive me for what follows but I just can't take it. :grr: I've been going through my list of things to do on a site redesign that resulted from a meeting yesterday. I nearly posted a rant about IE after spending way too much time trying to make a simple set of lists display in columns in IE without IE shoving items out of line and into the wrong columns. It turned out that IE wanted me to assign a height of 100% to one of the columns in order to keep it from realphabetizing the items. :dunno: I managed to calm down after that and turned to the next item on my to do list: adding bullets to the list items. Worked fine except in IE! :grr: IE wouldn't display all the bullets. To make things more interesting sometimes it'd display them but then if I scrolled down, they'd disappear when I scrolled back up! Just in case this happens to you, eventually I found the solution is to assign a bit of left margin to the div that contains the list.

Arrgh! I hate IE.

Thank you for reading.

Erica (off to create a prettier button)

[Joseph]

Yeesh, don't get me started on IE this week. I've had the most annoying stuff happen to me. Problem number one, I specified a font, size, etc in the Body CSS tag. Looked great in FireFox, but IE TOTALLY IGNORED IT! The font and size were the IE defaults and looked horrible. After about an hour of trying to figure out what was going on, I finally decided to create a CSS tag for every TD and put the font stuff in that as well, and then it worked in IE.

Next annoyance, and this one happens a LOT in IE and drives me CRAZY! I had a header image that needed to be lined up next to other header images. IE no matter what I did would put a horizantal line between any images that were on top of each other. I specified height & width of every table bit, every image, no padding, everything I could think of. But what did IE want? I had to put the whole table on one line. If I formatted it in my text editor (UltraEdit) - IE would put lines in it. ARG!

*breathes*

Ah, I feel better now. Hope you do to. :smile:

[Erica C.]

Next annoyance, and this one happens a LOT in IE and drives me CRAZY! I had a header image that needed to be lined up next to other header images. IE no matter what I did would put a horizantal line between any images that were on top of each other. I specified height & width of every table bit, every image, no padding, everything I could think of.
If the images were also links you could try img {border: 0}

Othewise, I have no idea why IE would do either of these things.

Oh! What if you created a page div that went around everything and set the font styles for that? If it worked it should be easier that setting the styles over and over.

I am feeling better, thanks. And IE even deigned to display the prettier bullet I made. :smile:

Erica

[Kevin]

I have decided that the only way I can maintain my sanity while working on my web site is to write it for my own personal enjoyment and simply to not care if anyone else can see it with whatever crazy browser they plan to use.

Good thing my job title is Systems Administrator and not Web Designer :yeah:

BTW, this is a pretty bullet: https://www.hornady.com/shop/shop_image/product/223_REM_TAP_FPD_316.jpg :P

-Well, OK, technically it is a cartridge not a bullet but the pictures of just the bullets don't have as many colors :rasberry:

[Erica C.]

Yeah, yeah. I used the phase "prettier bullet" to a friend and he thought it was hysterical. :ROFL:

I'm working locally and haven't loaded my images yet so I can't show you my pretty list-item marker.

Tempting as it is to ignore IE and leave instructions on my sites for getting better browsers, as a web designer, it really isn't an option. :hrmm:

Erica

[Andilinks]

Taking a peek at this pie is usually enough for me. (FF is lumped in with N7 on this graph).

http://www.andifashion.com/brs.gif

[Adam]

Taking a peek at this pie is usually enough for me.

A sobering post. It's just a shame that the most widely used is the least standardised. I'm currently having to develop in ASP.NET and there is a lot of assumption that developers will only be using Microsoft products, hence can ignore standards.

Latest gripe: Visual Studio automatically adds an HTML 4.01 Transitional declaration to any new page, then procedes to use semi-XHTML syntax. Grr.

[Andilinks]

My traffic demographic skews young, a lot of teens, a lot of back-to-school clothing buyers and pop music fans who are more likely to just go with default settings.

An older or more tech oriented demographic will have a higher percentage Firefox usage, but even so you've got to assume that a huge piece of the pie is always going to be IE.

[Mandi]

I think the next thing the Mozilla crew needs to do, is find ways to get their product distributed with new computers. I am sure that is a nearly insurmountable monopoly, but it's at the root of IE end-user superiority. Downloading alternative software is a scary notion for most users.

I had the pleasure of setting up two brand-new-from-the-box Dell laptops for a client yesterday. Crap McAffee suite ("Free for three months, at which point we'll nag you incessantly until you give us your credit card number, because the softwrare is hard to remove!"), THREE different ISP's preinstalled (WTH . . .?) including AOL (omg!) and all kinds of weird Dell-branded "platforms" - game platform, desktop platform. It also had Google Desktop, and while I am generally pleased with Google products and was glad to see they had some distributorship this way . . . this particular installation was impossible to back out of, and I'm still trying to figure out how to disable it for one of the laptops (intended for a younger boy with learning disabilities - I think it's too complex for him.)

Okay, sorry . . . that turned into an add-on rant about software preloaded on prebuilt machines. I solemly swear upon my stack of misc. computer parts,that I will never compute on anything that is not a homebuilt. Thank you a million times over to everyone who has answered my newbie questions on that front over the past three years :yeah: !

But everything you said about IE, too.

[PaulKroll]

The Macs I've purchased had only one or two things (like Office) that were on the drive but not installed, that I just dragged to the trash. My PCs, those are homebuilt. :)

[Randall]

Taking a peek at this pie is usually enough for me. And even with IE7 on the horizon, we're likely to be saddled with 6 for a while. I don't expect Vista to replace XP quite as rapidly as XP did 9x.

Not that IE7 doesn't have its share of brain-dead standards "compliance" issues. And I absolutely hate the UI, which is only slightly less ugly than NS 8's.

Well, maybe more ugly. :eeww:

Randall

[phppete]

And even with IE7 on the horizon, we're likely to be saddled with 6 for a while. I don't expect Vista to replace XP quite as rapidly as XP did 9x.

MS are forcing IE7 on all users as part of the security update later this year so there should be a quick swap to IE7 within weeks. There is a tool http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=4516A6F7-5D44-482B-9DBD-869B4A90159C&displaylang=en available for blocking the automatic installation of IE7 which I got and installed. On my PC I have IE5, IE5.5, IE6, IE7, a bit of a pain but it works.

[Andilinks]

Back in February and March there was a flurry of news items about IE7 blocking AdSense and other JavaScript stuff, has anyone heard anything recent on that?

The local stuff can be fixed easily but if you depend on your j-script working on other people's computers this could be a big deal.

[phppete]

I have IE7 beta 3, it doesnt block any JS I have written. I have never used adsense but if you have a page you would like me to check I can do that.

[Andilinks]

I think that if MS were threatening all out war against Google by blocking AdSense it would be headlines now, I was more concerned about lesser things that wouldn't have a powerhouse like Google to go to bat for them.

But war between MS and G would be an interesting spectacle. :)

[Randall]

MS are forcing IE7 on all users as part of the security update later this year so there should be a quick swap to IE7 within weeks. Yeah, so I've heard. :blah: If you haven't tested your sites on IE7 yet, better hurry...

Speaking of browser testing, my new favorite Firefox extension (on Windows, anyway) is IE Tab (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1419/). Switching between the Mozilla and IE renderers on the fly is very cool -- and you can have IE7 without its ugly interface. :yeah:

Randall

[Andilinks]

Thanks for that Randall.

So I installed IE Tab and yes it's cool to toggle. But I don't see where it is rendering IE7, am I missing something. Maybe the next version.

My site has pretty straightforward table layout and css for everything else, but I suppose IE7 could mess with it. Must I really download the beta now?

[Andilinks]

So my IE7 beta installation failed, my Windows updates have been failing since June because the validation update won't install and my XP reinstallation disks fail.

I am working up a serious hatred for Microsoft right now...

[Randall]

But I don't see where it is rendering IE7, am I missing something. It uses whatever version you have installed, so since you've still got IE6 that's what you'll see. So my IE7 beta installation failed, my Windows updates have been failing since June because the validation update won't install and my XP reinstallation disks fail.

I am working up a serious hatred for Microsoft right now... Yeah, the more complicated they make it, the more chances for things to go wrong. :hrmm: Automatic Update doesn't work either?

Randall

[Andilinks]

I get this:

http://www.andifashion.com/updates.gif

I guess auto updates would do the same.

[Andilinks]

After wasting 20 minutes trying to get support from MS, Macintosh is getting a lot closer...

[Randall]

I guess auto updates would do the same. Probably.

I get that error occasionally with the auto updates -- always involving the Genuine Advantage Validation Tool -- but after a restart the installation works.

Ironically, there's no direct download for the validator...

Randall

[Randall]

After wasting 20 minutes trying to get support from MS, Macintosh is getting a lot closer... Monday is the day Steve Jobs demos OS X Leopard at the World Wide Developer Conference. I am so hoping the rumors about the built-in Windows API are true -- then I could buy a MacBook Pro and try to use it as my main computer at home and work, spitting in the eye of all that Windows-only software I still have to deal with.

But even having Windows running at decent speed in a virtual machine would be excuse enough for me.

Randall

[Erica C.]

Yeah, so I've heard. :blah: If you haven't tested your sites on IE7 yet, better hurry...
Oh no, I thought I had more time. Now I have to convince my sys admin (AKA my husband) who hates anything MS to get me IE7. And no, I can't just download it. I have a Linux box and I have to use an emulator to run IE.
Speaking of browser testing, my new favorite Firefox extension (on Windows, anyway) is IE Tab (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1419/). Switching between the Mozilla and IE renderers on the fly is very cool -- and you can have IE7 without its ugly interface. :yeah:
That looked great until I read this:
"IE Tab is not available for Linux."

Erica (IE is giving me more to rant about)

[Randall]

That looked great until I read this:
"IE Tab is not available for Linux." Yeah, sadly it only works with Windows, since it needs to embed the system's existing IE object -- it's not quite IE in a Box. :wink: You could run Firefox in the emulator and then install the plugin ... but by then you'd have to say, Why bother? Easier to keep a spare Windows PC around for when you need it.

If it would make your sysadmin any happier, :wink: I've done well using VNC to access my PC from Linux and the Mac. Less sluggish than an emulator -- screen redraws have a noticeable lag, but the software at the other end is running at full speed -- and no Microsoft software need ever touch your real machine's hard drive.

Over a local network I could even work in Photoshop tolerably well.

Randall

[Erica C.]

If it would make your sysadmin any happier, :wink: I've done well using VNC to access my PC from Linux and the Mac. Less sluggish than an emulator -- screen redraws have a noticeable lag, but the software at the other end is running at full speed -- and no Microsoft software need ever touch your real machine's hard drive.

But doesn't that mean we'd have to have a Windows computer somewhere in the house?

It's just not going to happen.

Erica

[Wassercrats]

I downloaded IE 7. The links in the links folder of Favorites aren't in the toolbar, so I have to open Favorites to get to my top few favorite links. I assume there's a way to get them back in the tool bar.

Also, stuff is blurry and a little bolder. Any way to turn that off?

I wonder what other surprises they'll be...

[Wassercrats]

...and there's no autocomplete when I start typing a homepage in the address bar after having typed it before. Only a list of sub-pages come up.

And my web pages are messed up! This one (http://www.polisource.com/consumer-protection.shtml) for example.

...fixed with another conditional comment.

[Andilinks]

I do get the sinking feeling that when the IE7 upgrade is forced this PC will become all but useless until I fix that Validation Tool thing which means having to get support from Microsoft. They've already told me after I entered my product ID that I can't get free support from them and suggested I contact eMachines.

I may end up just buying a new PC because this dual monitor set-up is extremely efficient.

Yes, I know I could use two monitors with Macintosh but the time sink of all the conversion will be enormous anyway... ::sigh:: but better for the long run. Unless it's not.

Microsoft sucks. (http://www.microsoft.com/)

[Wassercrats]

If one tab crashes, do you loose all of them? That's what happens in IE6 when you open a link in a new window instead of a new browser.

[Wassercrats]

No way to browse the hard drive? maybe I'll put Windows Explorer in my Links. I still can't get anything from the Links folder displayed on the toolbar, but I figured out how to make the Links button appear on the toolbar.

...nevermind, I found the menu bar option, so I can browse the hard drive through File > Open.

Ugly

[Randall]

Ugly Told ya. :rasberry: But doesn't that mean we'd have to have a Windows computer somewhere in the house?

It's just not going to happen. You could put it in the basement. Or on the back porch, or in a little shed next to the house, or just nail it to the outside wall...

Randall

[Randall]

Monday is the day Steve Jobs demos OS X Leopard at the World Wide Developer Conference. I am so hoping the rumors about the built-in Windows API are true -- then I could buy a MacBook Pro and try to use it as my main computer at home and work, spitting in the eye of all that Windows-only software I still have to deal with. Oh well, nothing about a Windows API. Doesn't mean it won't happen -- just not today. :wink:

Randall

# I can dream if I wanna

[Erica C.]

You could put it in the basement. Or on the back porch, or in a little shed next to the house, or just nail it to the outside wall...
I'll be sure to pass these suggestions on.

Erica (still isn't going to happen)

[Andilinks]

Well, there's definitely a Mac Pro (http://www.engadget.com/tag/MacPro/) in my future, the only question is, how many more IE rants before I get there?

[Wassercrats]

Strange IE 7 bug...go to the page about:Tabs, then click the short tab to open a new tab. Then go back to the first about:Tabs tab, and you may see a colored background on the bottom. If not, go back to the second about:Tabs tab and you may see the colored background. It looks like:

http://www.polisource.com/PublicMisc/IE_7_color_bug.jpg

[Andilinks]

Well it is still in beta...

Barry, since you're tooling around in your new IE7 which I can't download could you do me a favor and check out a few pages on my site and tell me if they are doing anything outrageous or ugly?

Maybe these three would be representaive of enough types of pages:

http://www.andilinks.com/avril.shtm
http://www.andifashion.com/index.shtm
http://www.andilinks.com/swimwear.shtm

[Wassercrats]

Well it is still in beta...

Barry, since you're tooling around in your new IE7 which I can't download could you do me a favor and check out a few pages on my site and tell me if they are doing anything outrageous or ugly?

Maybe these three would be Representative of enough types of pages:

http://www.andilinks.com/avril.shtm
http://www.andifashion.com/index.shtm
http://www.andilinks.com/swimwear.shtmOn http://www.andilinks.com/avril.shtm the word "top" isn't visible at the bottom unless you highlight it. Only the arrow.

On http://www.andifashion.com/index.shtm there's not even an arrow.

Everything looked good on http://www.andilinks.com/swimwear.shtm so I dug deeper and found that your spelling of "swim suits" is inconsistent. Sometimes it's one word and sometimes it's two.

[Andilinks]

Thanks for the careful proofreading Barry, I was only concerned about gross problems due to IE7 but I appreciate finding these that are not due to the version. On http://www.andilinks.com/avril.shtm the word "top" isn't visible at the bottom unless you highlight it. Only the arrow.This was a style sheet error--fixed!On http://www.andifashion.com/index.shtm there's not even an arrow.This was originally a short page that didn't need an arrow and I forgot to add one when I added more content--fixed!Everything looked good on http://www.andilinks.com/swimwear.shtm so I dug deeper and found that your spelling of "swim suits" is inconsistent. Sometimes it's one word and sometimes it's two.I don't know if this was intentional or not but the inconsistent spellings help search engine results because searchers are often inconsistent, so I'm leaving these.

Thanks again, let me know if you need any pages checked. :)

Andi

[Randall]

Well, there's definitely a Mac Pro (http://www.engadget.com/tag/MacPro/) in my future, the only question is, how many more IE rants before I get there? It's a little disappointing that there's only one model, starting at $2,500 and going up (way up) from there. If you want the 3GHz CPUs and the maximum RAM, it costs only slightly less than my car.

Maybe they'll come out with a one-processor version later. Given the extremely limited expandability of the the other Macs, I can't see myself buying anything bigger than an Intel Mini until then.

Randall

[Wassercrats]

One of these days I'm going to accidentally click the arrow next to one of the folders in my favorites and every favorite (could be dozens) will open in its own tab. Does IE 7 give you any warning about that? What if there are 100 favorites in the folder? IE 7 is scary.

Oh, and what's up with IE 7 forcing ClearType (blurry) on Outlook Express? Tools > Internet options > Advanced has the option to turn off ClearType, but it shouldn't have affected OE in the first place.

[Wassercrats]

In IE 7, when you click the yellow star, the favorites, feeds, and history menu opens. On the top right of that menu, there's an arrow that says "Pin the Favorites Center" when you hover over it. What does that mean? I'm afraid to click it.

[PaulKroll]

You find cleartype blurry? There's a PowerToy (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx) out there that lets you adjust ClearType for the particular flat screen: I know my viewsonics were always about dead on by default, but the Samsung at work was HIDEOUS before I used the tuner. Really can't stand non-cleartyped text these days.

Course, if you don't have a flat panel, you really, really shouldn't have ClearType on at all. :)

[Wassercrats]

I have a CRT type thing (Diamondtron). I read a bunch of complaints on a Microsoft newsgroup about TrueType being on by default. I turned it off, and I'm satisfied.

[PaulKroll]

The whole way ClearType works is based on the structure of LCD panels... so if it's on with, say, a CRT... that's gonna go badly.

[Wassercrats]

Probably the worst bug is that IE 7 freezes when you try deleting a favorite, but at least you can delete them. You just have to end the task and re-open the browser. I guess you lose your tabs too.

[Wassercrats]

Unfortunately, I might have to go back to IE 6 because searching history crashes IE 7.

[Randall]

I know my viewsonics were always about dead on by default, but the Samsung at work was HIDEOUS before I used the tuner. Really can't stand non-cleartyped text these days. The Dell 1707FP needed major tuning, even after I swapped in my DVI card (at least the colors look mostly normal now). Contrast is still way off, but maybe when I do the hardware calibration tomorrow it'll settle down. I think the contrast problem is the source of the ClearType iffyness.

I much prefer Apple's antialiasing, which tries to reproduce the fonts as accurately as possible. ClearType just makes the verticals thinner because it can, instead of putting the extra resolution to good use. Sometimes I think I prefer it turned off.

Randall

[Mandi]

Can I toggle ClearType on and off, for a machine that might be SOMEtimes on an LCD, and SOMEtimes on a CRT - or does it embed itself irreparably?

Where did I put that KVM switch . . . ?

[Wassercrats]

You have to reboot when you switch.

And as long as I'm here, I'm back to IE 6 and I tried adding something to my trusted sites and got a message saying the site needs to start with https. I had to turn on Javascript for the entire internet zone instead.

[Randall]

Can I toggle ClearType on and off, for a machine that might be SOMEtimes on an LCD, and SOMEtimes on a CRT - or does it embed itself irreparably? It's in Display Properties > Appearance > Effects. Change "Use the following method to smooth edges of screen fonts" to Standard.

Randall