The hand-coding/WYSIWYG debate

[zeegraf]

This is a topic that's been under discussion in alt.www.webmaster and alt.www.authoring for several weeks now. Unfortunately it's degenerated into a flame war, so I'll post the topic here and see what happens. http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

I've only been involved in the biz for about eight months now, but I've noticed that many of the "old school" of hand-coding take an often disparaging view of the new breed of wysiwyg editors.

One fellow posted that he used Frontpage for site development and he was promptly slammed by many other users of the group. The main concensus of the respondents was that wysiwyg generates sloppy or broken code, and no self-respecting web designer would use such a tool. Another user posted that he used Dreamweaver, which supposedly generates much cleaner code. Still, the bulk of the responses to this particular post suggested that using wysiwyg is a cop-out and an excuse for not learning html properly.

What do you all think? How do YOU approach site design? Many newer designers approach it almost as a desktop publishing project; in other words, what counts are results and not the means used to achieve them.

Others take the stance that you can't really be a pro until you learn to do it the hard way... learning html thoroughly and doing the bulk of your work in a code-based program or text editor.

Personally, I think the best means is a mix of the two. If you're a one-person operation, then wysiwyg can save hours or days of time. Still, I can read the generated code and understand what's going on.

What's more important to you? Knowing the guts of the beast, or an eye for good layout, colors, and overall appearance and function? I've seen Frontpage sites done by children that looked like a million bucks, and hand-coded sites done by pros that put me to sleep. And of course, vice-versa. I'm really interested in hearing what everyone has to say, and I apologize for the long post. :/


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Don Z.
www.zeegraf.com (http://www.zeegraf.com)

"To poldly mow air moebius
gumby four" --Kirk on Novacaine

[Deb]

Story Time http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

When your car gets a flat tire and you are dressed up for your best friends wedding on the side of the freeway... would you trust a 16 year old gentleman to come over and help you change the tire? (ignoring all fears of 'stranger danger' here)

If yes -- then you feel efficient is fine when you need it done, you need it done now, AND you need it done right.

What if the stakes are higher? Let's say the tires are fine but the whole engine blew up and it's your brand new 100,000 dollar dream car. Would you trust the same 16 year old gentleman who did get an A in shop when in tenth grade to fix it?

If no -- then you are suggesting you want some one who has a bit more experience in the area of mechanics and you are going to pay a lil more, wait a lil longer, but sleep a lil better knowing it was done right.

Another scenario -- While the car is at this great experienced mechanics shop it gets a flat tire... The mechanic wants to grab his electric tools, buzz off the bolts real quick and slap on the new tire. Are you going to complain and demand that s/he instead grabs an old fashioned tire iron and jack and do it by hand?

Probably not. Yet, lets say a 'something' is wrong behind the tire that is easily noticed by an experienced eye yet commonly missed by someone not experienced. Here is where your high dollar mechanic is able to stop and work up a fix as it needs to be done, but your grade A first year shop student would probably miss the flaw.

My opinion -- WYSIWYG is fine when used during times it can benefit the many... saving time, saving money, yet still efficient. It's also a great tool to use for preliminary layouts. I for one would hate to spend all of the extra time needed to hand code an "idea" before I even know if it will be approved. I can 'slap' it together with a WYSIWYG editor.. show it to the client and go from there. After I have shown the client though -- the realm changes.

Client is now able to start nit picking out the details and generating more ideas. The editor may or may not be able to accomplish this... experience is what will accomplish this though.

I also consider who will be working on the site once I'm done with it. Do I need to leave <!-- Notes --> in the code for the client to be able to follow to accomplish updates? Or do I want to make that new cheaper designer who just stole my job life miserable? *eg*

Experience also counts for accuracy. WYSIWYG editors like Frontpage have been notorious for not following 'the rules'. Standards in code are created for a reason. With a medium such as the net evolving as quickly as it is.. it really really reaks when the browsers used to be able to read your code and now they cant. http://www.aota.net/ubb/frown.gif If the code had 'followed the rules' then this would not be the case. If you are using a WYSIWYG editor then I recommend a validation tool to go with it (not that I can talk cuz lately I've been slapping together code left and right and it's all sloppy hehe).

Bottom line my personal opinion is both is fine. Sticking with one or the other solely will cost you somewhere one way or the other. Depending only on an editor is dangerous -- very dangerous. But using one to get the job done and to learn from is valuable.

My 50 cents

Deb

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Unlocking the Power of the Internet!
www.FutureQuest.net (http://www.FutureQuest.net)

[pqwabbit]

I dont care - whatever peopel are comfortable with. I prefer to code by hand but I'm also very lazy and NEED to see the visual layout for images and such - I do both - but i was working a wyswyg editor before I even knew anything about code - actully if ya use it right it can help you learn code

Yeesh why does anyone care how people build pages so much to start a flame war over it?
hey , like it's their site man - let em do it the waythey want you aint payin for the space ar ya?

(you being peole whowant to flame the wyswyg people)



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Lea
Massachusetts Rabbit Rescue
http://www.RabbitRescue.org

[meikel]

Hi,

I have to add some words to this well known debate.

Personally, I'm very comfortable with hand-coding HTML. I cannot imagine using Notepad, but any editor doing HTML syntax highlighting should do well.

I once tried a Wysiwyg editor (think it was Frontpage), but was caught by a "this option is not available, you need to edit html anyway". So I abandoned this quite fast.

It might depend on how fast one is in keyboard typing and if one knows the 10-fingers system or not. I can type much faster than I can speak and having to use a mouse to adjust a table just is just too slow.

I once started with my homepage, because I wanted to learn HTML. It was quite easy and I used homesite from the beginning. Of course one cannot learn the whole stuff in a minute, but the assistants homsite was offering were of great help to get me started.

But anyway. Everything I read on this debate so far is worth nearly nothing. The only thing that counts is the page that comes out of the design process. And in 99.99% of all cases, the beauty of the design is not depending on the editor used. While browsing the web, you can see great hand coded sites as you can see great wysiwyg coded sites. And of course you can see horrible sites hand-coded and wysiwyg coded.

Usually one can easily spot if someone is just playing around with editor or HTML features or if one has a clear vision of the pages he wants to do.

Sometimes it can be a bit problematic to create browser-compatible code with some wysiwyg editors, but once you learn the pitfalls, you can avoid them or even turn them to your advantage. So if one uses a wysiwyg editor, he should be painfully aware that he should not trust the editor. And if one uses a text-editor he should be painfully aware that errors are much easier to make.

Some arguments coming from the hand-code side are usually
* code is too large (unnecessary tags)
* code is unreadable
* etc.
All these arguments are not really strong. Unnecessary tags enlarge the page by some bytes (maybe even 200 bytes), but that should not be a problem compared to the Kilobytes used for images. The generated code is usually only unreadable to a hand-coder (bad ordered, etc.), but is perfectly readable to any wysiwyg editor http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

So my bottom line is:
Use any editor you like and feel comfortable with as long as you create great pages.

Greetings from someone who wants to know what's happening under the hood
[nbsp][nbsp]Meikel Weber
http://www.meikel.com/chess

[hearts]

*i am getting sleepy.. i am happy with future quest.. i am happy with future quest*.. *giggle*

okay... i am snapping out of it..

i agree with deb.. that both work well together.. and I do exactly as she stated, so there is no need for me to right another book.

I wonder..
Unfortunately it's degenerated into a flame
war, so I'll post the topic here and see what happens.

i hope you weren't hoping for the same here. Cuz we are a good community... *we are happy at future quest* http://www.aota.net/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by hearts (edited 01-06-99).]

[zeegraf]

hearts laid this on us:

i hope you weren't hoping for the same here. Cuz we are a good community... *we are happy at future quest* http://www.aota.net/ubb/wink.gif

Dang it! Not one flame! http://www.aota.net/ubb/frown.gif

Actually, the p*ssing contest in the NGs has given me a bloated kill file. By the time I filter out all the nonsense, I've got maybe 10 posts to read out of 60...


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Don Z.
www.zeegraf.com (http://www.zeegraf.com)

"To poldly mow air moebius
gumby four" --Kirk on Novacaine



[This message has been edited by zeegraf (edited 01-06-99).]

[Zeb]

I have to agree with Deb as well. It depends alot on what you are doing. If I am designing a very graphics intensive site, I will start with a wysiwyg editor. Its a whole lot easier to take a large image put it in macromedia fireworks, let it slice it and then create an html page. You can then go from there, working your way around. But then, I also find myself getting frustrated when wys editors dont work quite right,..i.e.*cheating*on the rules...and quickly opening notepad to remedy the problem expidently.

Frontpage is a whole separate animal. For some reason, designers hate frontpage. I personally think it has to go beyond cheating the rules,..it has to. I know designers who are so vehemently against frontpage they actually get irate about it.I think it is two reasons..

1) Frontpage is the most userfriendly interface around, allowing you to make pseudo-pro websites with no html knowledge whatsoever. Its too easy.

2) (looking over my shoulder so that the lord does not striketh me down or turnest me to salt as I speak)..Its Microsoft. Lots of people hate microsoft...(ZAP)

Anyway, I like to integrate the two, sometimes I use one more than the other. Most of the time it takes an equal quantity of both to make things look and act just the way I want them to.

Im out of change.

Zeb

[Del]

Well, I personally never used wysiwyg editor much, spent a month or two using Nutscape Composer when I first was learning, but grew outta that pretty fast. Now I usually use Arachnophilia for most everything. It works great with html, perl, c, c++, java, etc... More of a 'what I ask for is what I get' editor with some snazzy button macro thingies for the really mundane typing (eg hit a button to generate a basic form, edit the action. click a button to throw in an element, edit the name/value. etc...).

Dunno why I'm sharing this stuff, but what the hey http://www.aota.net/ubb/smile.gif

I'm all outta change too, freakin smokes are up to $3.75 a box now in CA... http://www.aota.net/ubb/frown.gif



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Del
www.downinit.com/ (http://www.downinit.com/)

[hearts]

laughing.. hey Del.. they are only $2.75 here.. two bad habits.. i waste money.. and i smoke.. hehehehe

[auteur]

I completely agree with meikel. I have the exact experience. The WYSWYG programs like MS Publisher throw the site in unnecessary tables...I've always had to go in and tweak the tags to get the tables to look the way I wanted. I was working with a webmaster one time who I eventually ended up teaching HTML. He was using Frontpage and didn't like it when a picture was over to far and couldn't get it moved to where he wanted.

I've heard that these programs have improved. I still will use MS Publisher for an online newsletter occasionally. Because I know where to go and tweak the tags to get the look I want. I don't care if the text is a graphic because I don't submit the pages to the engines.

But on a general note, I am not excited about the programs and prefer hand-coding. It actually takes me less time to do than with the WYSIWYG programs.

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Elizabeth M. Miller
Getting You the Attention You Deserve!
www.123marketing.com (http://www.123marketing.com)

[Armand]

Guess I've already declared my loyality in this debate on the other thread, but must throw in another 2 cents here.

Personal choice: Hand-code and wysiwig -- these days the wysiwig is just to check my hand coding. Started in wysiwig mode a bit for about a week until I figured all the codes out and memorized a book.

Okay I tried Frontpage once...created a page which looked great but I couldn't figure out why it put half the tags it did in. And I completely knew HTML by that time and still couldn't make heads or tails of most of it. Think that and some of the bizzare frontpage extensions is why a lot of "serious designers" (whoever serious designers are http://www.aota.net/ubb/wink.gif ) are totally opposed to Frontpage.

Just my take on things

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Armand (aka Joe)
JLavi67555@aol.com
www.arcanumcafe.com (http://www.arcanumcafe.com)

[pqwabbit]

$3.75 huh? my firend has stopped acutally - since she's been pregnant - but we though they were pretty pricey here when they surpassed the $3 mark! yeeeesh

Glad I dont smoke


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Lea
Massachusetts Rabbit Rescue
http://www.RabbitRescue.org

[Justin]

I personally don't mind if people want to use wysiwyg, but I prefer Notepad. I will occasionally use Homesite 4.0, only because it's basically a text editor with a browser, but for the most part it's hand coding for me.

My site now is very cheap and took me about an hour to do - I haven't had a lot of time to work on it lately, but it took less time than it would have with wysiwyg. Besides, there's almost no graphics, and even on my 28.8 it loads in like 2 seconds. I will redesign it when I get the time.

The other reason I don't use wysiwyg is that I used SSI for the header and footer, and I haven't seen an editor that supports that (though I am thinking of writing one myself :-)

Plus, like mentioned earlier, Front Page adds all kinds of tags not needed at all, and it has screwed up my hand coded HTML that it didn't recognize. That angered me, and I uninstalled it immediately (no patience).

Ok, that's my 2 cents I guess.

Oh, how do you do the smiley's? Must be UBB code. I know how to do this, but not the smileys :-)

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Justin Nelson, SFE Inc.
http://www.vdj.net

[Justin]

http://www.aota.net/ubb/wink.gif Testing.

[zeegraf]

Del said:

I'm all outta change too, freakin smokes are up to $3.75 a box now in CA...

Hmmm... I was buying my cigs in Virginia and could get Dorals for $1.64 a pack. Finally got disgusted and threw what I had away last Saturday, and haven't lit another one since. It ain't fun going cold turkey after 24 years. http://www.aota.net/ubb/frown.gif


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Don Z.
www.zeegraf.com (http://www.zeegraf.com)

"To poldly mow air moebius
gumby four" --Kirk on Novacaine

[pqwabbit]

The other reason I don't use wysiwyg is that I used SSI for the header and footer, and I haven't seen an editor that supports that(though I am thinking of writing one myself :-)

yeh doing a shtml fiel in a wyswyg is pukey - we;ll now Netscape 4.5 hadnles the file pretty well with out screing up that part 4.0 woulndt even open a shtml file off my local machine aaarghh - but thats another major reason I've odne mcmore hand coding - SSI tags just require it -= as do a numberof meta tags that netscape doesnt make in some easy interface thingy somewhere. - and nowthat i've hadot go in and edit cgi/perl and thatstuf as well - I need a text editor -
oh and webring code- ever try instering a web ring code into a Composer?? one line at a time!!!! zzzzzzzz take omnly a couple years -
no easy copy and pasting there!

so hand coding is bets for that stuff as well any snippet of code someone else wrote hat you want to add to your site -

That angered me, and I uninstalled it immediately no patience).

hehehe - thats what i do when i meet up woith something that screws up anytihng I've been working on - i just get so annoyed i wipe it offmy computer - aaargh dang softwarebe gone!
hee
n patient here eitehr



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Lea
Massachusetts Rabbit Rescue
http://www.RabbitRescue.org

[Benson]

I used to use a sharp stick and code in the dirt, but I've since graduated to papyrus and an oxbone pen.

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alba gu brath